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Reviving electric on road

Old 09-28-2020, 02:10 AM
  #751  
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Originally Posted by MD View Post
I work with a junior high r/c club and I have heard more than once from some of members that when they went to a local dirt track, that used to exist, they would get yelled at by some of the locals. They weren't being goofy they were just learning and making mistakes. I am not a very good driver and I have gone to tracks to practice and tried to be friendly with some drivers pitting near me. They were extremely arrogant and unfriendly. So , it's not so much the ownership of a track, but it's the guys who think the are pros. I think that's why it's being brought up repeatedly.
Nope. This is just not how it works. I'm sorry. I speak from many many years of racing experience. The "noobs" were doing something wrong if they were "yelled at". NO ONE would "attack" someone for just following the rules or following proper trackside etiquette. NO ONE.

99% of RC folks do not say anything to "noobs" at all UNLESS they are DOING SOMETHING WRONG and need correcting. The regular RC drivers are usually way too involved in practicing, tuning and are trying to not ruin their weekend, race day or monetary investment. Just because someone is new... Doesn't mean that the whole place has to operate at the "noobs" level. This is not a day care. This is a race track.

If a noob wanders into someone's house with muddy shoes on and then takes offense to that someone telling you to get out with your muddy shoes on... Then the problem falls into the noobs responsibility, not the house owners. The noob (or their guardian) have to take some of that responsibility on themselves for not preparing properly or learning the proper etiquette (ie; cleaning your shoes first.).

Here is a common theme.... Example: "Noob" makes a "simple/ honest" mistake because they haven't taken it serious enough to care about it yet. If you are new to racing and dont know that you are not supposed to use reverse after a crash and then reverse your car against the flow of traffic (Just one example).... Dont get mad at the guy that says "Hey get the hell out of the center of the track before you break my car!".

Now I do agree that some people could probably go about it a better way. As yelling or short remarks cant hurt noobs feelings. But again... this is NOT a day care. Most people are speaking or "yelling" with URGENCY because the situation calls for it. Doing even small things incorrectly during a "hot track" can be very dangerous and/or costly.

Sorry if this seems disrespectful or out of line.... but I have seen this "excuse" for over three decades now and I am just so tired of it.
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Old 09-28-2020, 06:17 AM
  #752  
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I've also been racing toy cars and full size racing for over 30 years.

You want to improve numbers? Get cars on track.

New comers are not going to start off being competitive. Equipment, class, restrictions, none of that matters, because at the competitive level, skill counts. You get skill by turning laps, developing the comfort to look ahead, recognizing the difference between influences of driver input versus car setup, and working on the area that will yield the biggest gains FIRST.

I get it, nobody wants to finish last, or be "that guy", but even being "that guy", THERE'S A CAR ON THE TRACK.

To get more cars on the track, I'll hand my transmitter to interested people when racing is over and I have plenty of time to fix what may happen later. One of two things will happen: the person gets excited and gets another car to put on track, or they decide from the start it's too hard and watch.

Class can factor in it, a car that looks cool or different can have a bigger draw, and rubber tire F1 or Euro truck are both good examples of that added draw, and for the most part, it's all grins up on the stand in those classes because they look slightly out of control, but are pretty forgiving (most times).

Even in the TC classes, it really doesn't matter if you have a $200 car or a $1500 car, if you're not turning clean laps and improving as a driver, there's zero reason to spend more on equipment. My TC is 9 years old, and it would still probably be "ok" in USGT, but it's an on the edge nerve test in stock touring on black carpet. When I got myself a good as the car, it was nipping on the leaders tails, it just isn't as forgiving to mistakes as the newer cars. THAT'S the type situation that can favor newer gear. When that happens, I'll either set that old car up for my 10y/o to run USGT, or sell it to an interested new comer, for a net gain of 1 car on track.

The talk of cost to be competitive that scares off the new potential people is the unnecessary part of this whole effort. Everyone has different ideas about the acceptable budget for this hobby, and there's really no reason to push for higher budgets until that driver's talent is equal or exceeding the limits of the equipment in order to continue improving their individual results.

At the club level, that may mean rolling road blocks for the fast guys, and that's life. At bigger races, those same guys will be in lower mains and less issue. Overall, the attitude that you have to be on pace from the start with the otherwise slowest guys that fill the one main on a weekly race just has to be set aside. More cars on track makes it a self correcting "issue", and that's the issue that should be promoted.

All that said, the new guy is going to "take their lumps" committing faux pas on track: reversing, driving immediately to the race line after crashing, trying to move over instead of holding a steady line. Reactions to all of those will vary depending on the group, but generally for every 3 that yell and storm off, there's usually at least 1 that will help coach, or setup, or explain the "normal" expectations. Even still, I would expect a newcomer to practice for several weeks, and be present on race days, without jumping straight in, to be a bit more aware of how things go, and these kinds of expectations should be laid out up front.

The only equipment I'd strongly suggest for a new comer would be an programmable radio, there's so much that can be done to make an onroad car more controlled over a RTR radio that it just can't be ignored. Even those are available used, slightly older, but plenty good and improved over the analog trim pots and no end points or dual rate or expo of a RTR radio.

For additional equipment progression that can be laid out for a new racer, after radio, I'd say: servo, teaching the local "tire game", battery, then motor/esc, then chassis. Again, IMO, the equipment gets focused on too much when starting, only when it's very apparent that the equipment is holding back results should pressure be applied for upgrades.

Cars on track first, then skill, then equipment focus. Start in a class that holds interest and suits the budget.
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Old 09-28-2020, 06:19 AM
  #753  
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Originally Posted by westendorfy View Post
Nope. This is just not how it works. I'm sorry. I speak from many many years of racing experience. The "noobs" were doing something wrong if they were "yelled at". NO ONE would "attack" someone for just following the rules or following proper trackside etiquette. NO ONE.
I have seen people get yelled at by other racers for making driving mistakes.

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Old 09-28-2020, 07:27 AM
  #754  
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Originally Posted by westendorfy View Post
No. We are trying to save On Road. We are NOT trying to start 6 more NON On Road classes. (Because thats called Off Road )
You cant just throw rocks and dirt on a track once a month. I guess you could but thats not too efficient.

But we are grateful that you are here trying.
I am sure you know this, but rally cars run on other types of tracks. For a change of pace USGT and VTA cars could be run on an on road track in the same way as the rally cars do in the video. People might be sitting around less and drvng more. It's just something different. Thanks for giving me permission to try.
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Old 09-28-2020, 07:54 AM
  #755  
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Originally Posted by westendorfy View Post
Nope. This is just not how it works. I'm sorry. I speak from many many years of racing experience. The "noobs" were doing something wrong if they were "yelled at". NO ONE would "attack" someone for just following the rules or following proper trackside etiquette. NO ONE.

99% of RC folks do not say anything to "noobs" at all UNLESS they are DOING SOMETHING WRONG and need correcting. The regular RC drivers are usually way too involved in practicing, tuning and are trying to not ruin their weekend, race day or monetary investment. Just because someone is new... Doesn't mean that the whole place has to operate at the "noobs" level. This is not a day care. This is a race track.

If a noob wanders into someone's house with muddy shoes on and then takes offense to that someone telling you to get out with your muddy shoes on... Then the problem falls into the noobs responsibility, not the house owners. The noob (or their guardian) have to take some of that responsibility on themselves for not preparing properly or learning the proper etiquette (ie; cleaning your shoes first.).

Here is a common theme.... Example: "Noob" makes a "simple/ honest" mistake because they haven't taken it serious enough to care about it yet. If you are new to racing and dont know that you are not supposed to use reverse after a crash and then reverse your car against the flow of traffic (Just one example).... Dont get mad at the guy that says "Hey get the hell out of the center of the track before you break my car!".

Now I do agree that some people could probably go about it a better way. As yelling or short remarks cant hurt noobs feelings. But again... this is NOT a day care. Most people are speaking or "yelling" with URGENCY because the situation calls for it. Doing even small things incorrectly during a "hot track" can be very dangerous and/or costly.

Sorry if this seems disrespectful or out of line.... but I have seen this "excuse" for over three decades now and I am just so tired of it.

I think your attitude sums up the problem. These kids were just driving slower. They weren't driving the wrong way. They had raced at our club and they knew the etiquette. I am old man and I have raced a lot. I have been on the track with one other driver practicing and instead of slowing down the other driver hit me. It was just practice. I would slow down and get out of the way and he still hit me. I was at a track during practice and I rolled the car in the corner and there were two guys standing next to the track near my car and they wouldn't bother to reach down and put it on its wheels. I got the message you're not welcome. You don't know the situation. You weren't there. There are racers out there with terrible attitudes and have forgotten they are racing toy cars and they weren't good drivers when they started. These kids were 11 to 13 years sold, they were with their parents, and they were excited to be at professional track. They found out quickly they were not treated with respect. No one expected it to be a day care center as you say. If people yell and swear at the new drivers as you suggest then the hobby won't grow. At Hobbytown in St. Charles, IL they welcome everyone. They have a lot of classes. There are some outstanding on road drivers. There is very little yelling. There quiet conversations where people are given advice, offered help and people help the new drivers repair their cars. They have a good turnout in their parking lot series. I've seen other tracks where kids and adults were practicing together. The kids were making mistakes. They weren't yelled at and they were welcomed. You could hear the kids saying, "this was fun, I want to come back?" As an experienced driver you know who's on the drivers stand with you and you can adjust.
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Old 09-28-2020, 08:14 AM
  #756  
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Originally Posted by MD View Post
I think your attitude sums up the problem. These kids were just driving slower. They weren't driving the wrong way. They had raced at our club and they knew the etiquette. I am old man and I have raced a lot. I have been on the track with one other driver practicing and instead of slowing down the other driver hit me. It was just practice. I would slow down and get out of the way and he still hit me. I was at a track during practice and I rolled the car in the corner and there were two guys standing next to the track near my car and they wouldn't bother to reach down and put it on its wheels. I got the message you're not welcome. You don't know the situation. You weren't there. There are racers out there with terrible attitudes and have forgotten they are racing toy cars and they weren't good drivers when they started. These kids were 11 to 13 years sold, they were with their parents, and they were excited to be at professional track. They found out quickly they were not treated with respect. No one expected it to be a day care center as you say. If people yell and swear at the new drivers as you suggest then the hobby won't grow. At Hobbytown in St. Charles, IL they welcome everyone. They have a lot of classes. There are some outstanding on road drivers. There is very little yelling. There quiet conversations where people are given advice, offered help and people help the new drivers repair their cars. They have a good turnout in their parking lot series. I've seen other tracks where kids and adults were practicing together. The kids were making mistakes. They weren't yelled at and they were welcomed. You could hear the kids saying, "this was fun, I want to come back?" As an experienced driver you know who's on the drivers stand with you and you can adjust.
Even with my limited time at WC. I could probably figure out who was complaining. There were a few that though they owned the track. And that other should get out of the way when they get on the track. instead of just waiting a few minutes until track cleared.


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Old 09-28-2020, 09:05 AM
  #757  
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All this discussion about 'being nice to noobs' and 'follow the rules or feel the wrath'....it all boils down to one thing. RC racing is a competitive, time consuming, expensive endeavor that is undertaken by imperfect human beings. There is NO set of rules....NO special class....NO novel approach to how we structure the races that will change any of that.

The fact of the matter is that RC racing is a microcosm for everyday life in the modern world. Some people succeed effortlessly where others flounder and struggle. Some people work hard to grow and improve, while others will give up when those same things aren't easy. Some people communicate effectively during a conflict when other people vent and blame. Some people will defend the downtrodden while others bully and take advantage. Some people work to uphold the rules while others will cheat and work the system......etc.....etc.....etc....

If I were a child's parent, I would view RC racing as a great place for young folks to learn about the real world in a low consequence way. Mistakes made while learning how to use tools, work toward a goal or even deal with the resident A-hole carry a far bigger cost when made on a real vehicle, in your marriage or at the workplace.

If we try to remove the 'shit gets real' aspect of RC racing and present this as an escape from everyday life, we will lose to video games and simulations EVERY TIME. Can we find no value proposition for RC racing in its current form? Most of the people in this thread are currently hooked for one reason or another. Can those same reasons not serve to infect more people with a love for this sport as well?
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Last edited by sps3172; 09-28-2020 at 12:30 PM.
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Old 09-28-2020, 09:22 AM
  #758  
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Originally Posted by Billy Kelly View Post
Even with my limited time at WC. I could probably figure out who was complaining. There were a few that though they owned the track. And that other should get out of the way when they get on the track. instead of just waiting a few minutes until track cleared.
There are lots of work-arounds for this type of friction but all of them require at least one grown-up in the room. Depending on the crowd and classes on site, practice needs to be controlled. As an example, no matter the driver skill, eurotruck and TC cannot peacefully coexist on the track, at the same time. The RD needs to set aside a time when the cars (or drivers) that are slow enough to effectively close the track can run without the more competitive cars (or drivers) breathing down their neck. A 30 second talk with folks from each group goes a long way towards keeping everyone happy.

If your local RD doesn't seem interested in being that grownup in the room, then you need to go have a grownup talk with the race director to explain that while it is indeed easier to sit back and do nothing...ultimately it cost them entries ($$$) in the long run when these folks clash.
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Old 09-28-2020, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by sps3172 View Post
There are lots of work-arounds for this type of friction but all of them require at least one grown-up in the room. Depending on the crowd and classes on site, practice needs to be controlled. As an example, no matter the driver skill, eurotruck and TC cannot peacefully coexist on the track, at the same time. The RD needs to set aside a time when the cars (or drivers) that are slow enough to effectively close the track can run without the more competitive cars (or drivers) breathing down their neck. A 30 second talk with folks from each group goes a long way towards keeping everyone happy.

If your local RD doesn't seem interested in being that grownup in the room, then you need to go have a grownup talk with the race director to explain that while it is indeed easier to sit back and do nothing...ultimately it cost them entries ($$$) in the long run when these folks clash.
Absolutely agree. At that time I was still new to the track. And I was a ďpractice onlyĒ driver. So my opinions didnít really matter. Unfortunately it seemed the track owners gave a few of the hardcore regulars a bit too much influence.

I ran into a this situation recently with off road. Few kids with truck way too powerful that were more interested in banging into each other, and off the walls then anything else. Most just pulled vehicle off. Let them go and then did their practice. Honestly, from stuff Iíd heard, I was expecting someone to start getting on the kids. But everyone just brushed it off.

It depends on track size. The outdoor racing I did this summer, we had everything. So during the limited practice time available you could have a 17.5 buggy, USGT, mod 4x4 and euro truck on track at same time. There was plenty of room to get around when needed.

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Old 09-28-2020, 12:08 PM
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Default Do away with Quals and run all or more mains?????

More than one person has said "Qualifying is boring....I'd rather race". It's also been suggested that qualifying is meaningless if you don't have more than one heat at a club race...etc. Both of these statements are misguided, at best.

"Qualifying is boring...I'd rather race."
Lets start with this bit of silliness. Anyone who's been in more than a handful of main events can vouch for the fact that the MAJORITY of mains end up as a crash fest. The 'winner' of the main is often not the fastest car. Most club level racers (and even some experts) are doing all they can to keep the car on the track. The idea that they can cleanly race side by side with another car without crashing is a pipe dream. In RC racing, MOST 'clean' on track passes are 95% luck and 5% technique. To deny this is to deny reality. The IFMAR style qualifier is your best chance to 'race' with someone based purely on skill, free from the worry that you will be divebombed/t-boned at the next corner apex. Any descent announcer can highlight the back and forth battle taking place when 2 drivers are on a good run during a qualifier, etc. Those who claim to prefer 'racing' to qualifying are often those who lack the skill to qualify well....without the random, luck driven nature of the main event, they have no chance to be up front. Sour grapes. I say.

"Qualifying is meaningless at club races with only one heat..."
Often, the same person that says they would rather 'race' than qualify, will also claim that it's meaningless to run qualifying heats when you don't have multiple mains at a race. It is also easy to shoot holes in this claim. As mentioned above, finishing order in a main is often determined by luck but, your odds do tend to improve the further up grid you get to start. To say that qualifying is meaningless at a club race (single main per class), is to disregard that advantage offered by starting nearer the front of the grid. In my experience, this is, again, just a 'sour grape' claim from a racer that doesn't qualify well.

In my estimation, the main event at an RC race is like a lottery drawing. The qualifiers are your chance to buy more tickets to the lotto. The racing format is not the reason on-road racing is on the decline.....in fact, this format is the reason we've made it as far as we have. It has been designed to take as much luck out of the process as possible.
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Old 09-28-2020, 12:15 PM
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Following.....
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Old 09-28-2020, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by sps3172 View Post
All this discussion about 'being nice to noobs' and 'follow the rules or feel the wrath'....it all boils down to one thing. RC racing is a competitive, time consuming, expensive endeavor that is undertaken by imperfect human beings. There is NO set of rules....NO special class....NO novel approach to how we structure the races that will change any of that.

The fact of the matter is that RC racing is a microcosm for everyday life in the modern world. Some people succeed effortlessly where others flounder and struggle. Some people work hard to grow and improve, while others will give up when those same things aren't easy. Some people communicate effectively during a conflict when other people vent and blame. Some people will defend the downtrodden while others bully and take advantage. Some people work to uphold the rules while others will cheat and work the system......etc.....etc.....etc....

If I were a child's parent, I would view RC racing as a great place for young folks to learn about the real world in a low consequence way. Mistakes made while learning how to use tools, work toward a goal or even deal with the resident A-hole carry a far bigger cost when made on a real vehicle, in your marriage or at the workplace.

If we try to remove the 'shit gets real' aspect of RC racing and present this as an escape from everyday life, we will lose to video games and simulations EVERY TIME. Can we find no value proposition for RC racing in its current form? Most of the people in this thread are currently hooked for one reason or another. Can those same reasons not serve to infect more people with a love for this sport as well?
This ^ 1000%

The real world can be tough but its how you respond that makes the man. Will there be bad apples? You betchya. But this whole blaming RC On Road decline on "local meanies" is ridiculous and old. You proved my point with a lot of what you replied but you really hit it the nail on the head with this old line...

"There are racers out there with terrible attitudes and have forgotten they are racing toy cars and they weren't good drivers when they started."
Did you ever think that they are not Toy cars to some folks and you treating it that way offends people? Doubt it. Cause to you its just "Hey man.... Why you being mean man? Its just a toy man..."

Just like all of you... I dont know what the answer is but painting a false narrative about people at the track because you are not as involved as they are.... Well it's ignorant.
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Old 09-28-2020, 07:35 PM
  #763  
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think we are getting off track. Pardon the pun.

So daughters are not allowed, since RC make someone a man.

I’ve never looked at attracting kids. The parental involvement unless the parent is racing is a big roadblock. Not many kids I’ve ever met, including myself long ago. Would really like to hang out with a bunch of 40-50 year olds. And of the 3 tracks I’ve been at, none would allow a kid( under14-15) to be just dropped off on their own.

Yes. There some that are ultra serious about this. But they should be able to know the difference between and event and a club race. At a now closed track, 4-5 years back a member chased off a photographer sent by Horizon Hobby because he didn’t like him using a flash during practice. Worst part is nobody did anything to stop him. We all know stories of bad behavior.
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Old 09-28-2020, 08:25 PM
  #764  
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westendorfy - I couldn't have made my point better. We are not talking about national championships or world events. I am not painting a false narrative. Most of the great drivers are great to new drivers and kids. But, the guys who are not give the hobby a bad name. I was at a Tamiya race many, many years ago where there were great drivers, serious drivers, young drivers, and everyone in between. Way back then Scotty Ernst kept things under control and made everyone welcome and called the "D" Main I was in like it was a world championship race. That's when on road was huge and Trackside in Milwaukee was an on road track.
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Old 09-28-2020, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Billy Kelly View Post
think we are getting off track. Pardon the pun.

So daughters are not allowed, since RC make someone a man.

Iíve never looked at attracting kids. The parental involvement unless the parent is racing is a big roadblock. Not many kids Iíve ever met, including myself long ago. Would really like to hang out with a bunch of 40-50 year olds. And of the 3 tracks Iíve been at, none would allow a kid( under14-15) to be just dropped off on their own.

Yes. There some that are ultra serious about this. But they should be able to know the difference between and event and a club race. At a now closed track, 4-5 years back a member chased off a photographer sent by Horizon Hobby because he didnít like him using a flash during practice. Worst part is nobody did anything to stop him. We all know stories of bad behavior.
The junior high r/c club I work with is centered around the kids racing. They have a good time and they support each other and most are on their own on race day, but we are racing at the school. It's what you are referencing, Billy. I think track owners will have to make a special effort to get kids involved. They sometimes work through the PTA's in schools to do rocket building and things like that. There is no reason why they couldn't to that with the 18th scale cars like the little Traxxas Rally. It's basically an on road car.

I know this is not the best choice. When it comes to getting more on road racers you may have to add an additional class. It would have to be cheaper. I would suggest a Tamiya TT Class which could run with the Euro trucks. Depending on the body, the TT02's are cheaper. The TT02 Class is popular all over the world. The hobby shop would have to carry parts. So, that would be a financial commitment for them. It is a good driving car out of the box. The disadvantages of the car has no bearings, the kit tires may or may not work and it's not rtr.
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