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Old 12-11-2002, 10:05 AM   #16
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Wow that's one hell of a reply

I saw the Losi prototype somewhere
I'll try to find the URL

Hhmmm after all the hearing............ Belt does had some good stuff...luckily i still had my Porn Car Losi.
Getting a TC3 Soon ... (It rocks after driving my friends TC3)
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Old 12-11-2002, 11:36 AM   #17
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I think there is a distinctive difference in reasoning for sponsored drivers to change their car and the regular club drivers. Whether is the car manufacturer chooses the driver or the driver chooses the car I will let you decide. I know I chose RCLab as first car was becasue the car's engineering made sense to me and it was more ruggered than any other TC I have checked out at that time, and the fact that not every other drive has one is another plus for me!!!

Yes it is true that fast drivers are usually fast in what ever the car within reason.... The difference between top chassis these days are small but I think there are meaningful differences between shaft drive and belt drive, maybe thats why other manufacturers are trying it out rather than making it a marketing stunt (one can always hope! )

Maybe they have exhausted the belt drive design grey matter and good on them for looking for possibly more performance from the shaft avenue. At the end of the day with belts no matter what you still have the drag handicap? Did you guys read about the experimental Mission rear pulley which had gears replacing the rear belt? They experimented with it to reduce belt drag for the short rear belt.

Maybe with improved power from the motors and the cells that the drag issue is not such a big deal as before and probably wouldnt show in a 4-5 minute race... I agree belt drive may be more stable without torque snap and torque steer etc... but if there are several manufacturers all perfecting the shaft drive system then I am sure we will all be benefitting from its efficiency also.
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Old 12-11-2002, 11:57 AM   #18
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Sonetter- shaft cars are more efficient for the first 1-2 seconds of acceleration, but as soon as the belt cars start to spool-up the belts slightly raise off of the pulleys, at which point the belt car becomes more efficient and keeps gaining efficiency. Where a shaft cars maintains the same drag thru- out the entire acceleration/ deceleration process.

Why does Associated refuse to build a buggy based on the TC3 driveline? because on all but the very highest bite tracks (which there aren't many in the world) belt cars will be dominate due to their slight "give" on throttle.

What would be funny is if some major companies built shaft cars, causing all the circus monkeys to go out and buy those cars, and then Associated released a new car using belts, and a subsequent monkey leap back....LOL
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Old 12-12-2002, 05:31 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by sonneteer
Harley are the Rolls Royce of bikes...... but please don't tell me they are fast cos they aren't Its a super cruiser!
No, they arent fast. But they got torque like a big truck. And that means a lot of power trough the belt. So dont say belts are fragile.
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Old 12-12-2002, 05:33 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by NightKidZ
Hi, I dun drive that many RC cars to comment on different drivetrains but heres what I know abt bikes and why the fast one (eg MotoGP, SBK etc) don't use shaft ( as used but most BMW bikes)
The reason is this, torque reaction on a shaft driven bike will cause the bike to flop over when the trottle is twisted : P
Thats the last thing you want to have when the bike is leaned over and you are gassing it up after the apex with the bike still leaned over : P
Yes - for around 20 years ago. Now a days, shaft drive are evolutioned. There might still be a small effect, but it's not a problem anymore.
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Old 12-12-2002, 05:37 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by IMPACTPLAYR
Sonetter- shaft cars are more efficient for the first 1-2 seconds of acceleration, but as soon as the belt cars start to spool-up the belts slightly raise off of the pulleys, at which point the belt car becomes more efficient and keeps gaining efficiency. Where a shaft cars maintains the same drag thru- out the entire acceleration/ deceleration process.
Precisely.

Shaft versus belt are more marketing bla bla, than anything else. Otherwise, ALL cars would've been shaft or belt for many years.

By the way, some guys claims the Mission are like a TC3, when it comes to acceleration and effiency - just even better.

True? If it was, all cars would use a transmission like the Mission.

Not true? All cars would be shaft driven.
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Old 12-12-2002, 06:45 AM   #22
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i have 2 new friends....Cole Trickle and IMPACTPLAYR...

i am glad that someone here understand ME.......
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Old 12-12-2002, 09:46 AM   #23
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IMPACTPLAYR:
About the belt drive the faster it gets the better it gets while shaft remains the same? Where did you get this information from I'd like to know as a matter of interest (not being funny, argumentative or anything!)

It is true as the belts itself work better when travelling faster, despite being inefficient at the start. Now in most form of circuit racing the acceleration and recuperation is most important this is where I believe the shaft drive may have an advantage, especially for Stock. We often speak of "off the mark" or "out of the corner" punch and direct always have that on tap! If driver cannot handle it then that remains a driver issue and not about efficiency.... At the same time most ppl are complaining about not having enough punch !!!

As to HPI setting the trend for shaft drive... not sure about that, purple bits maybe, shaft drive...with TC3 bits... (but they are definitely great marketeers!) I havent been in this game long enough to know how made the first shaft driven tourer that is competitive.

Cole Trickle:
I said the Harleys are not fast.... but the reason for choosing the belt was for smooth power delivery and quietness = comfort. But belts are more fragile than chains if I compare like with like. Harleys got loads torque true, but not power

There are of course commercial (marketing and fashion) issues:

Marketing:
Too many players in the belt driven market. Everybody is at it at the moment and it is hard to define their USP cos ther arent any .

Choice:
TC3 has the market for shaft drive. If they win every lemming will focus on the drive train... and if they want to buy one, then there is only one obvious choice. Other manufactures dont want that .

Just in case factor:
What if they can develop an even more efficient shaft drive car???

and finally yes I agree there are probably more marketing reasons to migrate (if they are cos at the moment its rumours) than performance reasons... which is sad becasue progress is what we all want in the end...

I still think efficiency is the key... and some belt drives are not. Any damn fool can make simple belt driven car... but I applaud AE and Losi for being really innovative and invested heavily with what they think is a way to go... be different with a cause.
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Old 12-12-2002, 11:48 AM   #24
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Soneteer- Someone on this forum ran a controlled test, using a TC3, and ? Belt car (can't remember) Using the same motor, tires, and final drive ratio. Both cars had a well broken in drivetrain, and where placed on a car stand, because the technology to do actual on-track testing on this would be expensive.

During acceleration the TC3 initially pulled less amps, but stayed almost the same thru the whole rpm band. The belt car started slightly higher , but gradually decreased, until about mid RPM where it dropped below the tc3 and kepy getting better.

However you don't need any test equiptment to understand the physics behind it. As the rpm's gain centrifical force causes the belt to be "thrown out" as far as possible. Granted you need a belt that is broken in and loose, but I personally spent as much time with my TC3's drivetrain as I do with my belt cars to get them well broken in.

The problem with guys omplaining about sluggish acceleration is simple--- ALOT, and I do mean ALOT of guys just don't know how to gear their cars! Most people believe there s on special pinion/spur combo that will work in all conditions. It seems that alot of tracks are migrating towards a long staright away with a small fast flowing section and a majority of the track being tight and technical under these cicumstances they old addage of gearing so the motor tops off 3/4 way down the staright just won't work. So they think the car, batteries, or motor don't have enough punch.

Cole- "build a better mouse trap"....LOL it has been 100 years since man built the first mouse trap, and still engeneers are coming up with new designs, WHY? because each person has a new prespective on the concept. I will bet we will see a dozen new configurations within the next 5 years for belt cars, because there are always new eyes looking into the problem...... Also there is a certain amount of professionall courtesy that keeps engineers from swiping a concept from someone else too quickly.... it's just when the execs step in and force the engineers to play copycat the boundaries are broken.......
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Old 12-12-2002, 01:54 PM   #25
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Ok.. I drive both Belt and Shaft. I used to own a TC3, but now have a Tamiya 414 M2, and a Tamiya TB Evo2. WHen it comes to acceleration, The TB Evo2 would be 2 cars ahead before the 414 can start spooling up. BUT.. that's if the Evo2 runs straight. Yes, shaft cars are strong, because there's barely if any flex in the drivetrain as compared to the rubber belts of the belt car. But so much push to one side makes the car harder to drive. The 414 may not have on-the-spot burst of energy like the Evo2 or TC3, but keeping it in-line is much easier. I love my shaft car. It's as much of a rush as it is a challenge to drive. Although I can come up w/ faster times while using the shaft car, Consistency comes with the belt cars. I see the belt to be more forgiving, and pushes out a lot easier. BTW... Talking about shaft/belts winning IFMAR or worlds, when was the last time anyone saw X-Ray win a race?? heheh.. I can see companies testing out shaft cars, but that doesn't mean it's going to go into production.

As for comparative reasons, Imagine a car that uses timing belts. They have to be changed ever so often (usually costing in the 800 dollar range to replace). But new dodges are comming w/ Timing chains instead of belts, which are not as hard to maintain, but are so much louder.

Can anyone imagine an RC that's chain drive?? heheh... I've been thinking about this for a while. But if you take a really small diameter chain, it could be light enough to freely move, yet strong enough not to flex. It'll be like having the punch of a shaft drive, w/out the torque steer. ANd pebbles wouldn't be too hard to keep out. I've seen some electrical motor power equipments that run very small chains. I've thought about retrofitting it on an RC, but that'd just be too much work for a guy like me. Wonder if anyone has tried this yet.. Well, that's my 2 cents.. thanks=)
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Old 12-12-2002, 01:57 PM   #26
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WHen was there a time when anyone has ever seen a rear wheel drive or 4wd car (a real car) that uses a belt?? and if so, effectively?? All the RWD or 4wd cars on the market run shafts. Also if you look under some big rig trucks on the freeway, you will see a huge pipe spinning right under the truck.. SHAFT.. Whatever you say, shafts will still be stronger than belts. So far I have already replaced my belts twice. I still have never had a need to replace my shaft=)
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Old 12-12-2002, 03:14 PM   #27
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Actually chains were widely used in 4wd offroad until about 87 when the belt cars started coming out. Chains were great in dirt oval cuz you could run them very loose and they would be very free but with all the bouncing of offroad they had to run them pretty tight so most companys switched to belts.
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Old 12-12-2002, 03:36 PM   #28
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AQuionIV- That doesn't mean anything. You are comparing a 3 lb vehicle to a 3 ton vehicle.
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Old 12-12-2002, 03:49 PM   #29
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When was the last time you saw a full size car with suspension arms that reach into the very center of the car?? or shocks that where 6 feet long? How about those new Corvettes coming with pre-mounted purple/plaid foam tires?? Last time I checked F1's are the only cars that use one big lug nut! How about those new single speed racecars ising one big gear mounted to the drivetrain and spun by a little gear mounted to the output shaft of the motor (I'll get to that in a minute) with no clutch at all!!! Also how many race cars use a motor (that thing you feed gas is an ENGINE, MOTOR is electric)

Comparing RC cars to real cars is a real cop-out!, When you can't think of anything better, well real cars don't use belts.... Real cars don't use foam tires, foam inserts, plastic wheels, steerrng servos, really big men standing along side the track controlling every move the car makes, or electric motors and batteries to poweing the locomotion.

In the summer months I race on parkinglots with my family we set-up a make shift oval and it is usually much larger than most prepared RC ovals. For most of my family the TC3 is king..... however my dad and I bought XXX-S's and with the same motors, tires, and batteries they all have to run FDR's of 4.42 and we run FDR's of 5.75 on the Losi's ....... At the end of our 10 lap heats we have lapped almost every TC3 and are on the verge of lapping the last one!!!!! Nobody can convince me that shafts are better at anything but repelling rocks!!!
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Old 12-12-2002, 03:51 PM   #30
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Dudes, Corally is even testing several drivetrain setups, one of them being the shaft.
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