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Old 03-03-2010, 07:59 AM   #1321
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Also ran a "old" black can sport and a new one.
Numbers were close!
old
pwr 40.27 rpm 14285 tq 742 eff 62
----------
new sport
pwr=42.6 rpm 14269 tq 785 eff 71

I am going to take a few of the old ones and try to see if I can "twist the com"
Thats right!
Let's get this taboo subject out in the open once and for all.

If I can figure out how to do it...I will post pics and results so we all know what to look for when there is a "questionable" motor.

I HATE CHEATERS!
Any objections?

Forgot.
I also ran a Kyosho 05 "LeMans"
El-junko

pwr 26.15 rpm 11169 tq 601 eff 65

Want to point out that what we can buy "right now" are the best 540s out there.
Attached Thumbnails
Silver Can Motor Tips/Tricks-oldspt.jpg   Silver Can Motor Tips/Tricks-nspt3.jpg   Silver Can Motor Tips/Tricks-setup9.jpg  

Last edited by j.d.roost; 03-03-2010 at 09:51 AM.
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Old 03-03-2010, 08:01 AM   #1322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hprt View Post
Interesting data for comparisons.

just a couple questions on your Fantom - where you running the steel or aluminum flywheel, and were you using the Facts II software, or the PVFactsII program (for some reason, they give slightly different results on my machine)?
Aluminum.
Facts II
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Old 03-03-2010, 10:46 AM   #1323
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No question that the best closed endbell motors of all time are available today.

The current 540J's easily hit a power number of 34+ after some decent break-in, and our full-race motors are topping 40. Same with the black cans- power numbers of 40+ after break-in, and full race motors somewhere in the low 60's.

Comm twisting will be easier on the old motors because production tolerances were much looser back then. Now production tolerances are much tighter (and more consistent from motor to motor), which means it's likely you'll break a stack before you advance the comm very much. Not something we do (or recommend).

Also see you are using a good power source. Some people try to run their dyno using a puny 20 amp power supply and their readings are lower. Even a silver can will pull 30+ amps for the first second or so on a dyno that loads the motor.
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Old 03-03-2010, 11:24 AM   #1324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rccardr View Post
No question that the best closed end bell motors of all time are available today.

The current 540J's easily hit a power number of 34+ after some decent break-in, and our full-race motors are topping 40. Same with the black cans- power numbers of 40+ after break-in, and full race motors somewhere in the low 60's.

Comm twisting will be easier on the old motors because production tolerances were much looser back then. Now production tolerances are much tighter (and more consistent from motor to motor), which means it's likely you'll break a stack before you advance the comm very much. Not something we do (or recommend).

Also see you are using a good power source. Some people try to run their dyno using a puny 20 amp power supply and their readings are lower. Even a silver can will pull 30+ amps for the first second or so on a dyno that loads the motor.
The 540j's I ran had two weekends on them. I would think I can get a nib broken in and over 37.

I am going to do a nib before and after water dipping and see what comes up.
I was going to try that polish stuff (forget the name) but I want to stick with something I can do at the track.
Thanks for the info.
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Old 03-04-2010, 07:28 AM   #1325
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I get my sliver cans anywhere from 15,000-17,000 rpm/5v.
Rccardr, if you are out of your silver cans, do you mind if I sell a few of mine. I know this is an open forum and I can sell them. But I rather not step on your toes b/c you have been doing it much longer. I would propose that when you are out, i have the green light. You can contact me directly [email protected] or through pm's. I am located in Canada and the ones I do are Canadian TCS legal which obviously are legal for TCS in the U.S.
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Old 03-04-2010, 08:08 AM   #1326
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I get my sliver cans anywhere from 15,000-17,000 rpm/5v.
Rccardr, if you are out of your silver cans, do you mind if I sell a few of mine. I know this is an open forum and I can sell them. But I rather not step on your toes b/c you have been doing it much longer. I would propose that when you are out, i have the green light. You can contact me directly [email protected] or through pm's. I am located in Canada and the ones I do are Canadian TCS legal which obviously are legal for TCS in the U.S.
Sorry, but they would not be legal for TCS in the U.S. The rules spell out a very low rpm limit AND NO magnetic shenanigans. IMO a 14k+ 540J @ 5v is impossible w/out doing some sort of magnet enhancing or "cranking". I may be wrong on this, but the most generous rpm limit was 15k and most were at 13.5k. Our regional at Aliso Viejo used a 12.5k limit.

Not trying to harpoon your motor business, but wouldn't want you to start out claiming your motors are USA TCS legal, when they, from the posted rules, would not be. Seems to be a bigger market in club racing tho.
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Old 03-04-2010, 08:15 AM   #1327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Granpa View Post
Sorry, but they would not be legal for TCS in the U.S. The rules spell out a very low rpm limit AND NO magnetic shenanigans. IMO a 14k+ 540J @ 5v is impossible w/out doing some sort of magnet enhancing or "cranking". I may be wrong on this, but the most generous rpm limit was 15k and most were at 13.5k. Our regional at Aliso Viejo used a 12.5k limit.

Not trying to harpoon your motor business, but wouldn't want you to start out claiming your motors are USA TCS legal, when they, from the posted rules, would not be. Seems to be a bigger market in club racing tho.
Thats interesting, since rccardr's motors pull the same type of numbers, at leat from the ones that people bought around here.

These are the numbers i just pulled off one of my 3 race used silver cans. No shenanigans here...
2v 1.06 6450rpm
5v 1.21 16350 rpm
7.2v 1.36 23400 rpm

Edit. When did they change the rpm limits for the silver cans. I could be wrong, but I thought only Tamiya Canada had strict amp draw limits and Tamiya USA did not. But thats not a big deal, cause the 13.5k is even easier to achieve.
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Old 03-04-2010, 08:18 AM   #1328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Granpa View Post
Sorry, but they would not be legal for TCS in the U.S. The rules spell out a very low rpm limit AND NO magnetic shenanigans. IMO a 14k+ 540J @ 5v is impossible w/out doing some sort of magnet enhancing or "cranking". I may be wrong on this, but the most generous rpm limit was 15k and most were at 13.5k. Our regional at Aliso Viejo used a 12.5k limit.

Not trying to harpoon your motor business, but wouldn't want you to start out claiming your motors are USA TCS legal, when they, from the posted rules, would not be. Seems to be a bigger market in club racing tho.
Thanks for posting this. Some silvercan racers (like me) like to run in classes that adhere to the TCS motor rules. "Tweaked" motors are fine for some classes, but will quickly split or ruin a close Tamiya Mini Cooper class.
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Old 03-04-2010, 08:27 AM   #1329
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Thanks for posting this. Some silvercan racers (like me) like to run in classes that adhere to the TCS motor rules. "Tweaked" motors are fine for some classes, but will quickly split or ruin a close Tamiya Mini Cooper class.
I agree with you. But we all look for some type of advantage. Whether it be better electronics, tires, batts. Any small advantage that complies to the rules, is simply a competitive advantage not cheating. If TCS USA rules state a 15k rpm limit at 5v, that can be easly "adjusted".
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Old 03-04-2010, 09:46 AM   #1330
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I agree with you. But we all look for some type of advantage. Whether it be better electronics, tires, batts. Any small advantage that complies to the rules, is simply a competitive advantage not cheating. If TCS USA rules state a 15k rpm limit at 5v, that can be easly "adjusted".
Each regional is free to set whatever rpm limit they choose. Some have specified 15k others have chosen 13.5k. All rpm limits seem to be based on testing at 5v. I believe a couple of them have no limits at all. Very confusing to everyone concerned.

My suggestion would be for you to visit the Tamiya USA web site and check the rules for the USA. Then check with each Regional race director and find out what the rpm limit is for their particular venue. It's confusing and fluid as rpm limits seem to be altered on a whim. There are a lot of things wrong here, but that's just the way things are.

The rules also state no "cranking" or magnetically enhancing the motors or at least that was the intent. The rule is poorly worded and provides a loop hole for those inclined to use it. Nothing wrong in this, so I have no objection.

Last edited by Granpa; 03-04-2010 at 09:56 AM.
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Old 03-04-2010, 11:16 AM   #1331
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Portyansky- Go ahead, be my guest. Nice numbers on that Canada-legal motor, although I'd like to see what the power reading is. As I've said many times before, RPM is easy but torque is very, very difficult.

As a benchmark, our full race Red Dots now turn an average of 18,500 RPM at 5 volts, with a power number of about 40. Of course, motors for events with RPM limits (and Canada TCS motors) have somewhat lower RPM and power numbers.

Granpa has made some good points about various regional rules. Best thing is to do a little research to see what each event requires.

Roost, I'd like to see a NIB motor that produces a power number of 37. That would be a true Genetic Mutant.
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Old 03-04-2010, 05:05 PM   #1332
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Portyansky- Go ahead, be my guest. Nice numbers on that Canada-legal motor, although I'd like to see what the power reading is. As I've said many times before, RPM is easy but torque is very, very difficult.

As a benchmark, our full race Red Dots now turn an average of 18,500 RPM at 5 volts, with a power number of about 40. Of course, motors for events with RPM limits (and Canada TCS motors) have somewhat lower RPM and power numbers.

Granpa has made some good points about various regional rules. Best thing is to do a little research to see what each event requires.

Roost, I'd like to see a NIB motor that produces a power number of 37. That would be a true Genetic Mutant.
Thanks man!
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Old 03-08-2010, 03:16 PM   #1333
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Hey Ray K,

I hear you have been kicking butt all over with you Mini. It will be good to see you again in Wisconsin. We have been getting a good turn out in the Mini class for our Tuesday night club race. Should be some good competition for you.

Rccardr, you have a PM.

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Old 03-26-2010, 11:08 AM   #1334
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For anyone interested. http://www.rctech.net/forum/r-c-item...ct-racing.html
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Old 04-07-2010, 12:49 PM   #1335
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Question for the silver can gurus!

Seeing as the new rules for the AV TCS for GT3 and Mini are as follows:

5.0 Volts
The 540-J motor may not exceed 12,500 rpm and 1.2 amps

7.2 Volts
The 540-J motor may not exceed 18,000 rpm and 1.2 amps

per Fred @ Tamiya:

"The above numbers are meant to encourage running the motor right out of the box. The above numbers also take into consideration the motor brushes will eventually seat in and its rpm and amp draw will increase. RPM and AMP draw numbers exceeding these ranges are clearly suspect as they may only be obtained using rare earth magnets and fancy jigs to alter the motors magnetic field to advance its timing. This voodoo is what we want out of the TCS series and to promote a fair environment."


Does this mean I shouldn't water dip or otherwise break in my new 540J motors?

In other words, should I just take a new motor out of the box, drown the bushings and slap them in the car and go?
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