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Old 12-17-2007, 09:31 PM   #721
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interesting facts and good solid info but way too much time on your hands

Last edited by bowl806; 12-17-2007 at 10:14 PM.
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Old 12-17-2007, 10:18 PM   #722
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boy grandpa and you guys are long winded but you guys do make since santa
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Old 12-18-2007, 12:43 AM   #723
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two problems with this. Time and manpower. Tamiya only has so many guys to send to TCS regionals (or to train locals)... so tech becomes an issue. the second..regionals are "usually" one day. for people who travel.. they usually leave the same night so they dont have to take an extra day off.

having tech micro inspect every car will lead to more time.

btw....no one has mentioned that the "fast guys" have minis that get around a corner with no chatter.. while some guys who claim the "fast guys" are cheating, their cars chatter so much around a corner it should have its own talk show AND even having a fast motor wouldnt help them out.

just an observation i saw during the 2006 AND 2007 TCS Nats when i watched the mini mains.
1. They only teched the motors of the top 3 at the Nationals. Most people could do that in 3 min. If it takes longer than 5 min. to train the tech. person to run any of the motor testers, that guy doesn't belong in tech.

2. I don't understand your micro inspect every car comment as they don't do that now. But you are right it would take more time if they started that practice.

3. No one entering into this discussion has ever said the "fast guys" cheat. What some have been saying is that there are some ungodly fast motors out there that seem a little suspect. From personal observation, I saw some good handling minis being wheeled by some pretty good drivers that had the same chance as a pizza in front of a little league team.

4. Why,if it was a good idea at the Nationals to limit blackcans you can't do the same for silvercans? Time, man power, training, and the competence of the techs,if Tamiya is to be believed, don't seem to be an issue. Seems to me that the we've always done it this way and who and the hell are you to suggest anything attitude is unproductive.

Hi Don. I'm not long winded. I was just here practicing my typing
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Old 12-18-2007, 06:18 AM   #724
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Old 12-18-2007, 08:24 AM   #725
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Has anyone tested these motors on a Turbo Dyno? If so, what were the load settings used?


I just melted one using typical 27turn motor settings.

Anyone?
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Old 12-18-2007, 08:32 AM   #726
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Hi,

Maybe the faster guys are taking faster lines and having faster corner speed leading to the straight,,,hence impression they are blowing by everyone with a faster motor (or cheat gearing) when maybe they just better have momentum.

Maybe they also focus on batteries. Maybe IB4200 charged at special rates.

Maybe they have the best esc money can buy.

So not necessarily just faster motors... also good batteries, esc and faster driving skills. Fast drivers would probably also use braking skills to dive deep into corners then power out... how else could you gain an advantage in 540 motor class...

Enjoy.

joel

These guys are talking about people pulling them by 10-15' on a straight. That isn't corner speed or faster lines. 2 cars on a straight one pulling ahead by 15' means one motor is obnoxiously faster. That's almost the difference between a 27T stock and a 19T motor. I get beat by a huge margin by one guy who does drive better lines but on the straight he doesn't pull me at all. The speeds are almost exactly the same on the straight.
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Old 12-18-2007, 08:35 AM   #727
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So, do a motor grab bag or a "I think you're cheating so I get to give you my motor and take your motor for $15" rule.

One of those rules would end the motor cheating discussion.

On oval night at the track I race at, they have a battery and motor grab bag. To race in the series, you purchase a battery and a motor. They are retained by the race director. You pick from the bag at the beginning of practice and turn them in at the end of the night. I am not into oval, but the result is some of the closest racing I have seen.
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Old 12-18-2007, 08:37 AM   #728
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I have also been involved with series were the winner is required to turn over the motor to the last place guy every race day.
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Old 12-18-2007, 09:19 AM   #729
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I have also been involved with series were the winner is required to turn over the motor to the last place guy every race day.
i think there was a 1/1 rally a while ago, and all the competitors were given a car off the scrap heap and had to drive it to kazakstahn, where they sold it for charity.

a bit random, but seemed vaguely relevant...
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Old 12-18-2007, 09:33 AM   #730
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Hi,


So not necessarily just faster motors... also good batteries, esc and faster driving skills. Fast drivers would probably also use braking skills to dive deep into corners then power out... how else could you gain an advantage in 540 motor class...

Enjoy.

joel
Joel, classic comment. THINK Now how else could you gain an advantage????
You can't possibly be that naive.
Also, if I remember correctly, at the Nationals, you had to use Tamiya batteries or ones they specified. I am aware of the charging methods to increase battery performance and so is just about everyone else. If you don't know, at your next race just ask the guy pitting next to you. He probably does.
Not one of us on either side of this discussion, argument, or debate was including the Sennas or Schumachers of the mini driving world. However, there are some really good drivers getting hammered by less skilled people.
THAT IS NOT RIGHT and that's why I started this discussion in the first place.
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Old 12-18-2007, 03:30 PM   #731
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Old 12-18-2007, 04:00 PM   #732
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Hi,

I have raced w/ people who have put 23T (tamiya sport tuned) arms inside a mabuchi can, and can see the difference in the straight. But then again, same speed difference while racing against a pro with a legal motor.

My car is also a favorite of tech inspectors, fortunately nothing illegal. I am pretty fast, but once you race with a pro you will see they can pull 10 - 15 feet on the straight with a legal motor. 14.7 sec w/ their mabuchi compared to their 13.2 sec / lap on their 23T. Their legal mabuchis are almost as fast as my 23T tamiya BZ laptimes (14.3s).

Just saying maybe people cheat.. then maybe again they do not. If we keep thinking they are cheating, we will never get faster. If we think they are legal, and go so fast, then our driving/setup skills will improve in order to reach those speeds.

Maybe im naive... then again i just enjoy this hobby since 1978, since i was 7 years old. I kinda know how cheating is done.

have fun

joel

ps. braking skills helps a lot in a class wherein battery and motor are relatively equal (e.g. handouts).
Being 10-15' AHEAD on the straight is not increasing a lead by 10-15' on the straight. Pro or not....two cars setup relatively close with motors that are roughly the same...one car WILL NOT pull away an extra 10-15' unless the car that's behind has a driver who lets off the throttle and who's going to do that??? Nobody, that's who. The question isn't someone who increases a lead with better driving skills, braking skills and cornering. It's about a car that's just obnoxiously faster in a straight line and I may not have raced since 1978 but I think I can tell. I race with a guy who won a TCS Mini class and he's awesome but on the straight I'm just as fast and neither of us cheat. He does beat me in the corners but flat out in a straight line...we're even or close enough that you can tell that the motors are roughly equal.
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Old 12-18-2007, 04:36 PM   #733
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Let's be clear,
1) better lines make for more momentum and straight away speed,
2) better setups with less chatter makes for more momentum,
3) better esc, higher charging rates, cleaner bearings ... make for more speed.
We know all of this and that's really important.

We can see the acceleration difference, we can hear the motor when it goes by, we can see that track officials dyno these things 30+% better than anything we've got from standard break-in's and cleaning. We're not novices, we know what we're seeing. It's all facts, it's the motor.

Aside from the non-Tamiya gearset issue what we aren't talking about is cheating, we're asking if advancing the timing without cranking or opening the can legal? Initially the vast majority of us thought "no", but after working through the discussion I think the answer is "yes".

It seems though that this discussion has reached a concensus: don't crank or open the can, but be creative with break-in and other timing related techniques up to the limits Tamiya publishes where they exist.
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Old 12-18-2007, 05:50 PM   #734
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Old 12-18-2007, 06:11 PM   #735
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At TCS events all of the above is and should be legal...as long as the motor is never opened or cranked. At a club level if the class is to survive I believe there needs to be much more controlled rules..ie, handout motors or max specs on motors...also spec batteries go a long way too. We run the 3200 Lipo at our track and that's about as spec as you can get. Many of these lifer TCS guys have figured out rigs and such to break in their motors while not stressing them and building in some advance timing. I hope to make it to that point some day...but most of the lifers guard their secrets with their life...as they should. It takes lots of time and $ to figure it out. I'm working on it...and guess what...once I figure it out...I'll guard it too!!

I agree 2 equal cars in all aspects entering the straightaway together and one has a better line onto the straight, he will have a speed advantage. One of my buds I race with has nearly identical #s on his motor as mine and everything else is almost exactly the same...if I enter the straight better, at the end of the straight it will look as if I have more motor than him and vice versa. But 15'...no...not that I've seen...unless it was a 180' straight. I've only seen that with the 2 of us running unequal motors...(21+k on his and 19K on mine....then there was a BIG difference regardless of setup.
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