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Old 12-16-2007, 07:31 AM   #706
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Wow.

Guess it's time to Call Me Stupid.

I had no idea people were doing all of this illegal stuff...figured the faster guys had figured out some things that remain behind the curtain for me.

Hard to believe that someone would actually put a non-Tamiya gear into their Mini just to beat others who were legal, but there you have it.
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Old 12-16-2007, 10:27 AM   #707
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Wow.

Guess it's time to Call Me Stupid.

I had no idea people were doing all of this illegal stuff...figured the faster guys had figured out some things that remain behind the curtain for me.

Hard to believe that someone would actually put a non-Tamiya gear into their Mini just to beat others who were legal, but there you have it.
I sent you an E-mail to the address you provided. However, I am going on record to admit that you were right.
Lee, you and I are wrong. We have misinterpreted the "rules" and shouldn't get upset about people who've figured it out. You see, we thought that all you were allowed to do was to break in the motor, clean it, oil it, put it into the car and go race. How dumb can you get????? We got that impression from somewhere and were dumb enough to just go along to get along. I figure it was some "smart" guy who figured something out and spread that rumor or a # of "smart" guys who independently came up with this "gentlemens" agreement. As you know, Great minds do think alike as witnessed by the many discoveries in the scientific world developed simultaneously without collaboration. Unfortunately, there are a lot of us who thought the same thing and I'm almost willing to bet we're the majority. Won't because I would hate to think most of you were as dumb as I was. Like I said in an earlier post, there have been a # of lessons learned. This discourse on this subject has been a real eye opener.
Again, you have my very public apology. I bristled cause I got the impression from the timbre of a # of your posts, including this last one, that you thought I was a "dummie". Sadly, I have to admit you were right. This isn't sarcasm, it's an admission. I am a DUMMIE.
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Old 12-16-2007, 11:40 AM   #708
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Originally Posted by bowl806 View Post
Hey rccardr-
thanks for the tip! -I tried but no luck
Results? ...history
hmm, well with the larger wheelchair motors we use for 1/1 electric endurance racing (240 watt 2000rpm) they get hot and burn out regularly, and then become, as you said, stuck. this is because the glue holding the magnets on melt at 80 degrees centegrade. i know RC motors have magnets held in with a spring, but maybe a peice of glue came off the arm and stusk to something? its a long shot, but its possible.
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Old 12-16-2007, 11:57 AM   #709
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maybe so- i have another motor (or so) to play with. anyway, but i kind of hate to have one wasted esp. since it was practically brand new. I really appreciate all the help/research into this --Thanks!
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Old 12-16-2007, 06:00 PM   #710
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Granpa, never got your e-mail, and it doesn't seem to have been caught in the Spam-O-Filter, either. Please try again at [email protected].
Thanks
Doc

ps: Dummies question nothing. Guess that keeps both you and Lee out of that particular club...
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Old 12-17-2007, 05:40 AM   #711
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ok, so i have a 27t HPI saturn motor (mabuchi can and arm but differnt endbell) that i want to get some more speed out of for bashing. i want to crank the comm, but which way do i turn it while looking down on the endbell?

thanks
joe
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Old 12-17-2007, 08:59 AM   #712
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My whole concern is cranking, crimping, arm replacement, non-27turn johnson/mabuchis.... that is cheating.


Cleaning, oiling, com drops, brush break-in, bushing break-in.... that is not cheating.


The line always gets crossed between the two and there should be developed rules for the non-cheating methods as well as how to spot the cheaters.
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Old 12-17-2007, 09:09 AM   #713
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Then , after 24 pages of how to make it faster ...

Suddenly everyone notices no one is the same speed as intended....

and


a few are stupid fast .....
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Old 12-17-2007, 09:10 AM   #714
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Originally Posted by A-Ko View Post
My whole concern is cranking, crimping, arm replacement, non-27turn johnson/mabuchis.... that is cheating.


Cleaning, oiling, com drops, brush break-in, bushing break-in.... that is not cheating.


The line always gets crossed between the two and there should be developed rules for the non-cheating methods as well as how to spot the cheaters.
Those are actually my thoughts as well. If building and tuning motors is really what people want to do then they should move on to racing in a different class. There's plenty of classes running motors that need tweaking and tuning. Some of us run silvercan because we don't like having to do all that and can't quite afford brushless yet.
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Old 12-17-2007, 11:53 AM   #715
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A-Ko says:
Quote:
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Cranking, crimping, arm replacement, non-27turn johnson/mabuchis.... that is cheating.
Cleaning, oiling, com drops, brush break-in, bushing break-in.... that is not cheating.
In between is advancing the timing without opening up the can. Granpa has been continually asking if this is legal. We all know that this is a grey area.

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If the race director sets a limit, then maybe it's my responsibility to work towards those numbers.
A) Any TCS race director that teched a car finding either a non-Tamiya gear set or a cranked motor would disqualify the entry (even if it was within a preset amp/rpm limit), but if they see the approved motor, no signs of opening/mod'ing the motor, and the amps/rpms are within spec absent any other rules they have no grounds to disqualify the entry and they will pass it.

B) Since TCS either doesn't set a limit (Silver cans) or sets a really high limit (Black cans) then Tamiya is allowing for creative ideas. Why set such an un-naturally high limit or argue with Granpa about setting a limit unless you have decided to allow advantages where effort is spent.

Therefore:
There is no rule against advancing the timing without opening the can, no way a race director could disqualify such an entry, there are high limits (or no limits) set that allow for this kind of performance, so the bottom line is that advancing the timing without cranking or opening the can is legal.

I'd personally like the motors to be closer since close racing is fun; I'd like to see lower amp/rpm limits set for both Silver and Black cans that are more natural for the cleaning, oiling, break-in kinds of effort. So a freak motor shows up, it'll be rare, break in another and stay within the limits.
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Old 12-17-2007, 03:02 PM   #716
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Just for fun and to satisfy my own curiosity, I purchased a couple of blackcan motors to test. Water dipped one and ran one in a car and on a test stand.
Motor #1 16,140 rpm 1.77 amps @ 5V
Motor #2 16,140 rpm 1.83 amps @ 5V
Both motors were not "tuned" in any way except for break in. No dramatic differences in either motor. I believe,and that's merely a supposition that both will improve slightly with more run time. Leads me to conclude that the motor specs set by Tamiya for the Nationals, while on the high side, were within reason. Haven't a clue how to get these 2 motors to approach those specs, but that's my problem and no one elses. Those that can, should certainly be rewarded for their efforts.
The other conclusion I've reached is that it is not unreasonable to ask or expect Tamiya to impose similar restrictions on the silvercan. For many TCS competitors, the Regionals are their big races and their needs are being largely ignored. I know some fly from region to region to compete, but they are the exceptions.
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Old 12-17-2007, 04:36 PM   #717
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interesting discussion.

hi doc.
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Old 12-17-2007, 04:40 PM   #718
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Originally Posted by Granpa View Post
The other conclusion I've reached is that it is not unreasonable to ask or expect Tamiya to impose similar restrictions on the silvercan. For many TCS competitors, the Regionals are their big races and their needs are being largely ignored. I know some fly from region to region to compete, but they are the exceptions.
two problems with this. Time and manpower. Tamiya only has so many guys to send to TCS regionals (or to train locals)... so tech becomes an issue. the second..regionals are "usually" one day. for people who travel.. they usually leave the same night so they dont have to take an extra day off.

having tech micro inspect every car will lead to more time.

btw....no one has mentioned that the "fast guys" have minis that get around a corner with no chatter.. while some guys who claim the "fast guys" are cheating, their cars chatter so much around a corner it should have its own talk show AND even having a fast motor wouldnt help them out.

just an observation i saw during the 2006 AND 2007 TCS Nats when i watched the mini mains.
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Old 12-17-2007, 07:51 PM   #719
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hi doc.
Hi, dude.
Season's coming up soon.
Sadly, tho, I will miss SIR- we'll be hiking in Yosemite that week, followed by three days in Napa.
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Old 12-17-2007, 08:05 PM   #720
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Latest silver can at 7.2 volts.

I am just back tracking

Come to think of it this is like a sport tuned motor around 25k.

This is the benchmark for silver cans I think...

Can you teach me how to achieve this?
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