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Old 12-13-2007, 05:28 AM   #691
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Your argument sounds good till you examine the facts.
We disagree on two points:
1) I'm not arguing. This is a discussion.
2) My statements are all fact based, ergo my reasoning is appropriate to the circumstances.

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I am asking you directly for your opinion. You must have one don't you?????
I have opinions on many things, and some I wish to keep to myself. A demand on your part does not create an obligation on my part. Having said that, I find it difficult to believe that anyone in today's racing world would think that physically cranking a motor to advance the comm could be an acceptable practice. That's such an 80's thing.
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Old 12-13-2007, 10:08 AM   #692
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Originally Posted by rccardr View Post
We disagree on two points:
1) I'm not arguing. This is a discussion.
2) My statements are all fact based, ergo my reasoning is appropriate to the circumstances.



I have opinions on many things, and some I wish to keep to myself. A demand on your part does not create an obligation on my part. Having said that, I find it difficult to believe that anyone in today's racing world would think that physically cranking a motor to advance the comm could be an acceptable practice. That's such an 80's thing.
You are absolutely correct and you have my apology.
1. However, I used the word argument in the classic sense of the word which is to take one side of a discussion. Thus, any discussion where there are two sides becomes an argument. If you took it any other way, that was my fault.
2. Two people can look at the same facts and come to different conclusions. Mine were based on what occurs in the real racing world. I believe even Formula One has engine specs. And yes I know this is not Formula One. I was not questioning your facts, just your conclusions.
3. I too have opinions on many subjects and most I keep to myself. Sorta wish I kept this one private, but my overdeveloped sense of justice overwhelmed my common sense. You did indirectly answer my question in that you find it unbelievable that anyone could find changing the timing on a motor would be an acceptable practice. I do not either. Where our positions differ --- I think I'll just keep that to myself. Please don't thank me for that, I've learned my lesson.
4. The lesson learned was private.
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Old 12-13-2007, 10:55 AM   #693
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OK I have read most of this thread and I have found some helpful tips (Here is comes!! ), BUT I feel like I am not getting the good stuff. Are you guys using Speed juice, adding caps? Where are the real secrets? Any of you gurus out there willing to let us in?
You know, you should let it out now as bushed motors are on the way out. At least this way you can get the praise for it. Otherwise if you wait you will go the way of the VHS!
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Old 12-14-2007, 06:11 AM   #694
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Granpa,I had done what you told,and a bit of cranking.now,my Johnson silver can hit 19500rpm from 16000rpm at 7.2v!!!!!!
Thanks for the great info!!!

I'm going to kick a** this Sunday!!!!!
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Old 12-14-2007, 09:42 AM   #695
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Originally Posted by James khoo View Post
Granpa,I had done what you told,and a bit of cranking.now,my Johnson silver can hit 19500rpm from 16000rpm at 7.2v!!!!!!
Thanks for the great info!!!

I'm going to kick a** this Sunday!!!!!
James, I am sorry, I was being facetious when I said crank away. I personally am against the practice as I'm also opposed to any form of motor tuning that causes an advance in timing or changes the basic specs of the motor. In the group that I race with, we don't subscribe to these practices. I've cranked and altered the timing on a # of motors for my own information, but have never ever raced with one. The performance advantage is too obvious and soon every one of your buddies will do it and your advantage will be gone. Having said that, it would sure be a hoot to see the expressions on their faces when you pull them by 10 feet down the straight. Also would like to see your expression on the first turn when you miss your turn in by 2 or more feet. Have your fun in practice, terrify the competition, and race with a "legal" motor. But, it would be fun and that's why I race anyway. Good luck and have a ball with your motor.
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Old 12-14-2007, 05:32 PM   #696
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It comes down to grey areas and how people interpet them. People will look for those cracks in the rules and exploit them. Like one guy that used to race the Tamiya series used find all the grey areas, so we called that Whippler rules (his last name). He inspired a dozen or more rule addendums.

Generally there is a "gentlemans aggreed" method in how to run these motors. Which is buying, breaking in and checking the numbers, then repeat the process.

If you look at the TCS series they only state "A kit type (Johnson or Mabuchi) silver canned motor must be used." for their classes. They also specify "Any modification not called out specifically in these rules is not legal. If a driver finds a loophole within the rules, the exploitation will be deemed illegal at the discretion of the race director."

Unless the racer is crazy fast usually the race director will be busy running races. I have seen a few instances where a blistering fast guy was not so blistering after that round and talking to the director. If I was a fly on the wall I could imagine the director telling the guy you are legal, right? We will tear down your car next round to make sure if your speed remains the same.....

I think the general statement that Tamiya makes about the Johnson rules is weak. A blanket statement will stop some from cranking while giving others the carte blanche green light. If you are the only one doing it, then you will get caught. If many are doing it, you will be considered one of the fast guys. How can you combat a "gentlemans agreement" when there are no specific written rules on it? It is almost like people are afraid to define them.

I even had a friend come to me with a cheat, that would have helped me at a past race. He said we could be really fast with this. I told him I would rather show the race officials the cheat and have them define it rather than try to "gain" an advantage. I would prefer keeping racing at skill and ability than a cheat to give you an advantage. Although I tend to think of cheaters as people with no skill, no ability and no conscience.

Unfortunately many people don't know what to look with crimping/cranking and many people don't care. Some of those people would just avoid it all together and run a harder class that they are not ready for . . .
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Old 12-14-2007, 06:34 PM   #697
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I have a silver can motor that is pretty new- the thing froze up and will not turn. Is there a way to repair or is it best to just trash?
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Old 12-14-2007, 07:07 PM   #698
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Chances are it has picked up something small that is made of metal, and that it is jammed between the stack and the magnet. Try turning the motor in both directions (put a pinion on it to give you some leverage). If that doesn't work, tap it in a couple of places on a hard surface like your driveway. Tap hard, and try to turn it each time you tap. If you're lucky, the staple or screw will bounce out or get close enough to a vent hole that you can see it and pull it out.

If not so lucky...toast
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Old 12-14-2007, 08:47 PM   #699
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Originally Posted by Granpa View Post
James, I am sorry, I was being facetious when I said crank away. I personally am against the practice as I'm also opposed to any form of motor tuning that causes an advance in timing or changes the basic specs of the motor. In the group that I race with, we don't subscribe to these practices. I've cranked and altered the timing on a # of motors for my own information, but have never ever raced with one. The performance advantage is too obvious and soon every one of your buddies will do it and your advantage will be gone. Having said that, it would sure be a hoot to see the expressions on their faces when you pull them by 10 feet down the straight. Also would like to see your expression on the first turn when you miss your turn in by 2 or more feet. Have your fun in practice, terrify the competition, and race with a "legal" motor. But, it would be fun and that's why I race anyway. Good luck and have a ball with your motor.
Yeah,you're right!my crank motor is only use for bashing,for race,i'll use the legal motor,just to keep it clean.that will do.

Thanks agian.Happy racing
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Old 12-15-2007, 01:01 PM   #700
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I have watched this discussion from the sidelines and thought I would throw in my .02.

I know Granpa and race at the same facility. In fact, I'm at ground zero for his discussion. Anyone who thinks racing minis at the big races is not serious has not been to a big race. The Tamiya rules may say the mini class is "for fun", and that may be how it was back in the day, but I think that at the level we are talking about, we all are pretty serious. I always try to have fun and believe that a hugh part of that fun for me is the people I race with and meet. But rest assured, at a big race I am there to beat YOU!.

I believe that I have incorrectly assumed in the past that the Tamiya rules prohibited any mechanical modification of the motors we run at the Tamiya race.

I am an 15 year expert racer, and when I scrape to gain a tenth a lap by running perfect lines, and some guy pulls me by 15' down the front straight at the regionals, it tends to get my attention.

The Tamiya rules at best are vague, and are macro in nature. I also would like to thank the tech people at the Tamiya races for sitting out there all day....but someone needs to be put in these positions that actually knows how to check these car.

Case in point: Mr 15' is running a non-Tamiya gear set. When I teched my car, the guy at tech mentions how fast that car was. I asked him if they would be checking the gearbox of that car. He proudly said yes and held up a pinion wrench. I asked him what he planned to do with that and he said count the pinion teeth. I watched this car get teched and he counted the pinion just like he said. And he missed the cheater gearset as I thought he would. He may have sat in the tech tent, be he had no clue what he should be looking for.

I, like many of you, have played with some of my weaker motors. I have done everthing mentioned in this thread and everything my creative mind could muster. I have ruined far more motors than I have improved. I can also state that not one of those motors went out the front door to the track. All eventually went to my junk motor drawer or became great fishing weights.

I guess my point for this ramble is that the existing Tamiya rules are vague and what rules that do exist are largely enforced in a weak manner.

When I see a motor at the last finales ruled legal that is putting out a full 30% more power than my unmolested motor it causes me to realize that it's not the 30% more motor guy thats messed up, it's my interpretation of the rules. My best handout motor was no where near the numbers that were identified as the limit by the race director.

It was a classic case of looking at the wrong end of the horse for me. If the race director sets a limit, then maybe it's my responsibility to work towards those numbers.

There are a few items that are clearly illegal, such as opening the can. But if the race director deems a certain output number legal, and does not adequately enforce the rules, what are the people like myself susposed to do? My at-race prep consists of running the motor, cleaning it like Granpa said, and oiling the bushings.

I clearly feel like a fool when Mr. 15' goes sailing by....

And I won't even start discussing the guy walking through the pits with a motor in his hand that had a scared-up output shaft. Three guess's what thats about.

I'd like to say I don't know what the answer is to this. Maybe at the big races the motors should stay in tech and each round you get a different motor. Or maybe the brushless comment has merit. I think that there are many opinions and many different scenarios.....but one thing is clear, the rules are vague and lack enforcement, and it causes me to question my assumptions about what is legal.

In closing, I would like to thank the guy who made the comment about the 07 finals and the fact that even the B main guys were very fast and capable of being in the A. Only a few seconds separated TQ in the A main and last place in the B main. I finished in the top of the B.

Lee Caldwell So Cal Minis

Last edited by Graphitedust; 12-15-2007 at 01:50 PM.
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Old 12-15-2007, 02:08 PM   #701
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Hey rccardr-
thanks for the tip! -I tried but no luck
Results? ...history
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Old 12-15-2007, 02:17 PM   #702
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Very, very interesting comments Lee, 4 stood out to me:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Graphitedust View Post
1) When I see a motor at the last finales ruled legal that is putting out a full 30% more power than my unmolested motor it causes me to realize that it's not the 30% more motor guy thats messed up, it's my interpretation of the rules.
2) My best handout motor was no where near the numbers that were identified as the limit by the race director.
3) If the race director sets a limit, then maybe it's my responsibility to work towards those numbers.
4) There are a few items that are clearly illegal, such as opening the can. But ... the race director deems a certain output number legal.
We know that last years tech didn't know what to look for in gears, and at the Finals none of the cars were as ballistic as they were at the regionals. I think Tech should keep an eye on fast cars watching how much the wheel turns with 1 turn of the motor armature (don't even need a wrench), and watch the Amp draw / RPM guidelines for fast motors.
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Old 12-15-2007, 07:02 PM   #703
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The writeup from Graphitedust was very informative. It seems there is no specific clarification for rules. My thoughts are that some people's interpretations of rules needs to be specifally clarified. Let's talk comparing this issue with baseball players' and performance enhancing. "I did not know it was wrong?" Mods that are not specified as legal should have their own "unlimited class" as not to take away from drivers who have devoted many years of study and trial and error of this hobby.
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Old 12-15-2007, 09:50 PM   #704
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A-Ko View Post
It comes down to grey areas and how people interpet them. People will look for those cracks in the rules and exploit them. Like one guy that used to race the Tamiya series used find all the grey areas, so we called that Whippler rules (his last name). He inspired a dozen or more rule addendums.

Generally there is a "gentlemans aggreed" method in how to run these motors. Which is buying, breaking in and checking the numbers, then repeat the process.

If you look at the TCS series they only state "A kit type (Johnson or Mabuchi) silver canned motor must be used." for their classes. They also specify "Any modification not called out specifically in these rules is not legal. If a driver finds a loophole within the rules, the exploitation will be deemed illegal at the discretion of the race director."

Unless the racer is crazy fast usually the race director will be busy running races. I have seen a few instances where a blistering fast guy was not so blistering after that round and talking to the director. If I was a fly on the wall I could imagine the director telling the guy you are legal, right? We will tear down your car next round to make sure if your speed remains the same.....

I think the general statement that Tamiya makes about the Johnson rules is weak. A blanket statement will stop some from cranking while giving others the carte blanche green light. If you are the only one doing it, then you will get caught. If many are doing it, you will be considered one of the fast guys. How can you combat a "gentlemans agreement" when there are no specific written rules on it? It is almost like people are afraid to define them.

I even had a friend come to me with a cheat, that would have helped me at a past race. He said we could be really fast with this. I told him I would rather show the race officials the cheat and have them define it rather than try to "gain" an advantage. I would prefer keeping racing at skill and ability than a cheat to give you an advantage. Although I tend to think of cheaters as people with no skill, no ability and no conscience.

Unfortunately many people don't know what to look with crimping/cranking and many people don't care. Some of those people would just avoid it all together and run a harder class that they are not ready for . . .
Hooray!!!!!!! Someone who got my point and stated it better than I did. Thank you, thank you. I was beginning to think I was the Jose Canseco of Mini racing. I wrote to Tamiya and suggested they institute Max. motor specs for the silver can as they did for the blackcans and received a what I would call a very argumentive reply from Larry Chen. In it he told me his tech people were unaware of any cheating. I just could not find the strength to reply. You can't make a blind man see, a deaf man listen,
or a st-------- well, you get the point. I wonder where he got his marketing degree if he is the marketing director
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Old 12-16-2007, 12:04 AM   #705
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Default More fuel for the fire....

A while back I typed in the word "mabuchi" into my search engine. I was surprised to find the Mabuchi Factory web site in Japan. I never gave it much thought, but this company makes low-end motors for everythig from hair dryers to cordless drills. It seems that they can stuff about any armature into about any size can a consumer wants to order. Check out the Traxxas 20t Stinger motor.....can is the same as the motors that come in some of the mini kits.

It sure seems like a company the size of Tamiya could approach Mabuchi and have some motors put together for special races that had NO COOLING HOLES. Pretty hard to crank the comm or play with the motor much if you can't get inside and the only holes are the motor screw holes. As for cooling, its a special event motor and they don't get that hot anyway.

I was also thinking about the brushless thing.....system costs twice what the silly car cost.....

As for the comment about the tech people not being aware of any cheating, I'd have to agree with Mr. Chin on that one. At least one of his people is not aware of how to check gearboxes for sure.. But remember the Captain of the Titanic was not aware of any iceburbs in his path. I bet the passengers figured it out pretty fast though.

Maybe it's time for Tamiya to look into more specific rules or use numbers that are closer to what a great unmolested Johnson motor puts out. Or maybe the motor stays in tech, gets put in the car and raced, then put back in tech without going to the pits.

Just for the record, I think Tamiya puts on a GREAT series and Mini is (in my opinion, and yes, I do get to have one) the most competitive class. There's a LOT of hard work that goes into it and I do appeciate their substantial efforts!

But this motor and tech thing needs to be somehow resolved, not only in the Tamiya series, but at my own local track (homies...are you listening).

In closing (again) let me wish everyone a wonderful Christmas , happy New Year, and great 2008 racing season. See you at the track!

Lee Caldwell, So Cal Minis

Last edited by Graphitedust; 12-16-2007 at 12:24 AM.
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