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Old 12-11-2007, 10:56 AM   #661
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Like I [email protected] 3volts they usually won't pull more than 1.3 amps...at 5 volts they will pull more. And it also depends on what kind of dyno. A no-load dyno is what I am talking about. A Fantom, Tekin or CE dyno will have different #s. I'd guess your motor would pull 1.3-1.4 at 3 volts. From what I've heard a cranked motor would pull like 2.0+Amps at 3 volts.
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I beg to differ with you. I have a four hole motor that I have had for over 15 years. I have never tweaked, twisted, cranked, or in plain words - cheated to make the motor faster.



This past weekend I had a friend put it on his dyno. By just keeping the motor clean and well oiled, the motor was pulling 1.7 amps at 5 volts with an RPM of 16,000. If you do the math and add another 2.2 volts that puts the RPM's around 23,000.

So, yes you can get 20k+ out of a motor with a little bit of love and no cheating.
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Old 12-11-2007, 10:57 AM   #662
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Originally Posted by CSeils View Post
I beg to differ with you. I have a four hole motor that I have had for over 15 years. I have never tweaked, twisted, cranked, or in plain words - cheated to make the motor faster.



This past weekend I had a friend put it on his dyno. By just keeping the motor clean and well oiled, the motor was pulling 1.7 amps at 5 volts with an RPM of 16,000. If you do the math and add another 2.2 volts that puts the RPM's around 23,000.

So, yes you can get 20k+ out of a motor with a little bit of love and no cheating.
Please note, my references were to the 540 Johnson. Also we all know there are some motors that are out of the curve. My question to you is, will your lovin duplicate that motor on a consistent basis??? I think not. Also I'm 70+ years old and can't wait 15 years for 15 years of lovin to tune my motors.
The larger Question, is advancing the timing cheating??????
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Old 12-11-2007, 10:58 AM   #663
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I'll let you know in another 15 years.
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Old 12-11-2007, 12:11 PM   #664
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I'll let you know in another 15 years.
Please do. I plan on being here.
Looks like I'm going to have to wait that long before anyone answers my questions on what's legal and what's not.
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Old 12-11-2007, 12:23 PM   #665
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Just to show that you can come across a real find...
I've tested one of mine old Tamiya silvercans.. (80's...)
Almost 2 amps, and 31700rpm...
Keeping it for a rainy day..
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Old 12-11-2007, 01:12 PM   #666
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To answer your question : any change to the timing on a motor not made to be advanced is cheating. You can't change a 24° roar approved motor, you shouldn't change a Mabuchi or Johnson either. Here are a couple of motor rules I found on the ROAR site. You should check their site, maybe some of the answers your looking for are there.

----------------------

8.5.4.2 Timing advance must be fixed at a maximum of 24 degrees measured mechanically. The space between the magnets must be centered on one set of mounting holes, and marked on one side of the can to indicate zero degrees. The brush hoods will be aligned at 90 degrees from this mark, plus the allowed timing. The commutator slots must be aligned with the center of the armature pole faces. A tolerance of two degrees is allowed on the commutator positioning, but not on the overall timing.

8.5.4.4
Stock motors must be machine wound using a "Mabuchi" cross wrap technique, and must incorporate a design that locks the commutator to the armature stack so that the timing cannot be changed without disassembling the motor.

8.5.5 MODIFICATIONS ON FIXED END BELL STOCK MOTORS:

8.5.5.1
No modifications are allowed that require disassembly or internal work on a fixed end bell stock motor. This includes re-balancing, re-forming the can, re-epoxying, adding ball bearings, and modification of the brush hood system, removing the endbell, and adding or removal of material or parts.

8.5.5.3
Any further disassembly or modification of a fixed end bell stock motor is prohibited.

8.5.5.4
If a fixed end bell stock motor shows signs of tampering during post race inspection, the driver will receive no score for that qualifier or main. At events where “hand out” fixed end bell stock motors are provided, the driver is responsible for any signs of tampering.
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Old 12-11-2007, 01:22 PM   #667
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Looks like I'm going to have to wait that long before anyone answers my questions on what's legal and what's not.
I've looked on TCS web site for the rule that was posted on motors and it's been over-written by the 2008 rules that don't mention it. I'm forgetting the exact numbers but ...

Legal is: 1 of the 4 motors listed, no more than 2.4 amps, if more, then not more than 19,400 RPM.

Seems like if you can dip it in beer and if it runs within these stats then it's legal.
Seems like if you change the brush angle without removing the end bell and if it runs within these stats then it's legal.
Seems like if you rub it like a magic lamp with mysterious magnetic rocks from Mars and if it runs within these stats then it's legal.

I know nobody likes to be cranking the comm, and I'll never do it, but it sounds like the rule is use the approved motor, run within the amp and/or RPM limits. If I made the rule I'd require it to be under X amps AND under x RPMs, but hey, Tamiya pays for the race and they make the rules.
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Old 12-11-2007, 01:40 PM   #668
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RaceBucks View Post
I've looked on TCS web site for the rule that was posted on motors and it's been over-written by the 2008 rules that don't mention it. I'm forgetting the exact numbers but ...

Legal is: 1 of the 4 motors listed, no more than 2.4 amps, if more, then not more than 19,400 RPM.

.
At what voltage?
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Old 12-11-2007, 01:59 PM   #669
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSeils View Post
To answer your question : any change to the timing on a motor not made to be advanced is cheating. You can't change a 24° roar approved motor, you shouldn't change a Mabuchi or Johnson either. Here are a couple of motor rules I found on the ROAR site. You should check their site, maybe some of the answers your looking for are there.

----------------------

8.5.4.2 Timing advance must be fixed at a maximum of 24 degrees measured mechanically. The space between the magnets must be centered on one set of mounting holes, and marked on one side of the can to indicate zero degrees. The brush hoods will be aligned at 90 degrees from this mark, plus the allowed timing. The commutator slots must be aligned with the center of the armature pole faces. A tolerance of two degrees is allowed on the commutator positioning, but not on the overall timing.

8.5.4.4
Stock motors must be machine wound using a "Mabuchi" cross wrap technique, and must incorporate a design that locks the commutator to the armature stack so that the timing cannot be changed without disassembling the motor.

8.5.5 MODIFICATIONS ON FIXED END BELL STOCK MOTORS:

8.5.5.1
No modifications are allowed that require disassembly or internal work on a fixed end bell stock motor. This includes re-balancing, re-forming the can, re-epoxying, adding ball bearings, and modification of the brush hood system, removing the endbell, and adding or removal of material or parts.

8.5.5.3
Any further disassembly or modification of a fixed end bell stock motor is prohibited.

8.5.5.4
If a fixed end bell stock motor shows signs of tampering during post race inspection, the driver will receive no score for that qualifier or main. At events where “hand out” fixed end bell stock motors are provided, the driver is responsible for any signs of tampering.
If I'm not mistaken, these rules apply to the 27 turn stock motors that we run in the stock motor class for touring and off road stock classes. They don't reference the 540 motors we run in the minis. Since the TCS races are not run under ROAR rules they are not answering any questions of mine. Racebucks is the closest to answering my Questions. Now if Fred at Tamiya would incorporate these suggestions in the race specs, that would be good. I only started this line of inquiry to to aid some friends who are great racers, but are being hopelessly outmotored. I know they are scrupulously honest and were operating under the false assumption that advancing the timing was not kosher. What the non responses from the fast motor guys leads me to believe they were wrong. So crank away guys and we'll have a more level playing field.
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Old 12-11-2007, 02:00 PM   #670
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At what voltage?
I forget the exact values and voltage, but now I'm recalling this was during the Finals so it refered to the Balack can; I haven't seen Silver can limits as part of the rules.

CSeils found the right ROAR rules, but I don't think TCS follows ROAR. The 8.5.5.1 & 8.5.5.3 rule out reaching into the can holes and angleing the brushes to advance timing, which is my theory why my motors are average compared to the wonders mentioned on this thread.

Edit: by the way I'm not one of the "great racers being hopelessly outmotored" that Granpa mentions, in fact in the Finals I ran the qualifiers with an 18T pinion in my Mini because the Black can was too much for me. I qualified 1st in the C, got greedy and ran the final with a 20T and rolled all over finishing last!
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Old 12-11-2007, 02:25 PM   #671
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can someone please post pictures of the more desireable 4 hole motors?

Are the holes in the can or endbell???

I have 2 dull cans (mabuchi, I think) with grey/silver endbells w 2 tiny slits.

I have 3 shiny Johnson motors (all new or newly broken in) with black endbells that have 4 larger holes in them.

All of the cans seem to have similiar # of holes...

Anyhow, I'm sorting through these and making a simple dyno to figure which are strongest for some TT-01 and M-03 mini spec racing.

Cheers,

Mark
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Old 12-11-2007, 03:07 PM   #672
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can someone please post pictures of the more desireable 4 hole motors?

Are the holes in the can or endbell???

I have 2 dull cans (mabuchi, I think) with grey/silver endbells w 2 tiny slits.

I have 3 shiny Johnson motors (all new or newly broken in) with black endbells that have 4 larger holes in them.

All of the cans seem to have similiar # of holes...

Anyhow, I'm sorting through these and making a simple dyno to figure which are strongest for some TT-01 and M-03 mini spec racing.

Cheers,

Mark
the 4 slot motors people are referring to have 4 slots in the can,instead of the 2 in the newer motors. They are no longer made to my knowledge
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Old 12-11-2007, 03:31 PM   #673
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Here ya go...
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Old 12-11-2007, 03:39 PM   #674
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Or some more views...2 slot on left...4 slot on the right.
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Old 12-11-2007, 03:54 PM   #675
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I do have to agree with rccardr that the majority of my best motors are 2 slots.
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