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Old 12-12-2002, 03:31 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by TRF414M
the most important factor that should be consider is whether the track is wide open with long straight or tight track with very short straight. Small Tight Track favors electrics. On open track, Nitro will just smoke the electric.

Electric cost a lot more than nitro because there are lots of things to consider like battery, motor, ESC. Nitro is just with good engine.
If you look at the pictures of the two british tracks they posted. They are both very wide open with long straights and are both asphalt. On both tracks the electric pro10 car is faster than everything else thats 1/10. And the pro10 record is sometime ago when they need to run 5 mins with 2000s. They cant go lower than about 13 -14T for large tracks and need to gear conservatively.

If we were to talk about a modern pro10 with good 3000s and with 8-10T motors. Take a look at the latest 2002 JMRCA results. The top drivers in pro10 did 25 laps in 5 mins at the Yatabe arena.(huge indoor track) Fastest lap is under 12secs. Hmm...I cant imagine what will happen if they ran on carpet.

Last edited by Jimmyd; 12-12-2002 at 07:40 AM.
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Old 12-12-2002, 04:38 AM   #47
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Default no doubt

I race both 8th scale on road and Electric TC.

Which one do I like better? Hard to say... I had a really crappy nitro season last year, with recurrent engine and clutch problems (I'm far from being a beginner, mind you...). It was a NIGHTMARE. I lost time, money, and only gained frustrations and being mocked at at the tracks I was going to with a spirit that, granted, might have been a little too high.

Then an indoor track opened in my area in September. I dug out my Schum Axis and my 2000's, and started enjoying RC again! plug it in, turn it on, and off you go... when you're done, bring it back to the pits, turn it off, let it cool down. FUN, no sweat, no friggin clutches, no temperamental carbs. And I'm running circles around 99% of the 200mm nitro guys. The only gas car I can't chase is the trackowner's VoneRR... but once again, he kicks my butt in electric too. He's faster with his TC3 than with the Vone on his own track.

Then I figured out, I'll race electro this winter... I bought some low-end 3300's, changed chassis (bought a used FTTC3), and off I go. First race nobody knew me in the local electric world, and I did very good. I had fun racing again.

However.... no I'm traying packs, I have to cut comms all the time, I have to carry tons of expensive stuff to the track (18A alim, 2 milleniums, lathe, T30) I have to mess with frigging partial charges to keep my 3300's alive, buy different brushes compounds, blah blah blah

Several conclusions to this post:

- Staying at the top level in electric is a PITA compared to gas. Maintenance and gear you have to own to keep going fast are insane. Costs for racing electric are grossly underestimated by most of us.

- Nitro is great fun, especially outdoors, but is also a MAJOR hassle when it doesn't work. Electric works all the time at the flick of a switch (unless you plug the batt backwards, but then it's another story)

- 90% of NTC racers don't have a clue about what they're doing. They always buy powerful engines and tuned pipes before transmission bearings... Needless to talk about how they drive.

- When beginners come to the track, I always advise them to start with electric to understand how to drive and fix the car... and to switch to nitro only when they feel comfortable facing new problems

- On an indoor track, top level ETC's blow away top level NTC's ANY DAY by at least half a second per lap. It's even more obvious on rubbers because of weight and the high CG of 200mm gas cars (why do you think they went from 190 at the beginning to 200mm?)

- Running electric for leisure is cheaper than running gas. Racing electric is way more expensive than racing gas.

- 30 minutes mains are COOOOOOOOOL !

- 12th scalers with 6 cells and 10 doubles is one of the badassest things I've ever tried, second only to good sex.


and Last But Not Least:

- Remember to have fun and respect other modellers whichever class they run... it's a hobby!

Paul

Last edited by Lonestar; 12-12-2002 at 04:45 AM.
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Old 12-13-2002, 03:07 PM   #48
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Default Re: no doubt

Quote:
Originally posted by Lonestar


- Nitro is great fun, especially outdoors, but is also a MAJOR hassle when it doesn't work. Electric works all the time at the flick of a switch (unless you plug the batt backwards, but then it's another story)

- 90% of NTC racers don't have a clue about what they're doing. They always buy powerful engines and tuned pipes before transmission bearings... Needless to talk about how they drive.

- When beginners come to the track, I always advise them to start with electric to understand how to drive and fix the car... and to switch to nitro only when they feel comfortable facing new problems

- On an indoor track, top level ETC's blow away top level NTC's ANY DAY by at least half a second per lap. It's even more obvious on rubbers because of weight and the high CG of 200mm gas cars (why do you think they went from 190 at the beginning to 200mm?)

- Running electric for leisure is cheaper than running gas. Racing electric is way more expensive than racing gas.

90% of NTC racers don't know what they're doing? You must have done a lot of traveling to a lot of tracks to be able to make that statement. If you are an experienced gas racer and you ever have a day when you can't get your engines to work I'd be more inclined to believe you don't know what you're doing. I can count on one finger how many times the experienced nitro racers at my track didn't get their cars going this season because they couldn't figure out their carb...

Of course electric will beat nitro on an indoor track - indoor tracks are DESIGNED for electric cars and there can't be but a handful that even allow nitro indoors anyway.

A new racer will have to learn to drive and fix their car whether they run nitro or not, they will have to learn to tune a carb to be a nitro racer- it's part of it.

Pro10 I don't know why we're even discussing since hardly anybody even runs the class anyway.

I too race both classes and your post that it takes SO much more money to race at high levels in electric is SPOT ON. Electric racers don't want to add up how much all the high dollar chargers, power supplies, new packs every 4 months, escs, dischargers, lathes, zappers, matchers....it goes on and on. Nitro you can use one engine for a year and a few spares and the only recurring expense is gas and tires.

The weakest driver at a nitro track will still have a car that is just as fast as most others. In electric the speed gap between the guys who drop serious $$$ on packs, motors, lightweight parts, etc. is HUGE! You can't buy your way into being a front-runner in nitro.

If a track is nitro - oriented I would advise a new racer to start in nitro since they will get more stick time sooner. If it is electric -oriented said racer should probably start there. You cannot discuss which class is "faster" unless you consider the track design. Electric cars are hands down much easier to drive and setup than nitro, so it may look like electric guys are better drivers but I don't see it.

However, no matter what, a nitro is going to be that fast for up to an hour or more of stopping only to refuel. No electric class can run more than 8-9 minutes at the same speeds.

Last edited by patelladragger; 12-13-2002 at 03:10 PM.
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Old 12-13-2002, 04:45 PM   #49
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Patella - while there are not as many Pro10 drivers as Sedan drivers (either N or E) we still do exist. In fact, at the last race at Rev, we had more Pro10's than any other class. At the SoCal GP race (this weekend) it looks like we (Pro10) will be something like 20% of the entire entry pool (this could easily change. . .)

At the last Norrca Nats there were more Pro10's than Sportsman Nitro entered. . .quite a few more Pro10's than 1/12th (stock and mod combined. . .)

This is only counting USA - not touching Europe, Asia, Aus, etc. Pro10 is out there. We're fast and we LOVE kicking Nitro Butt!

Don't count us out!
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Old 12-13-2002, 06:45 PM   #50
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Default Nitro Smokes Electric?

Having mostly race Nitro fo the past 3 yrs. I have just recently gotten back into Electric TC and most definiately agree that it is MUCH more work and expense to be competitive in electric.
I have also noticed that the competition in all of the electric classes is fierce (mucho hacking) while Nitro seems to be slightly more layed back. All in all, the more you diversify yourself. The better overall you will do in the hobby.


POST: "Nitro Smokes Electric" (looks like a few people are smoking something)
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Old 12-15-2002, 10:20 PM   #51
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I have an electric TC.
I'm saving some money to buy a NTC3.If u want nitro to smoke electric , drive your nitro and leave the electric in ur pit.vice-versa.
I want both and I intend to have fun.
U guys who compete here arent pro's(i think)so u cant really represent the racing ppl.Ask Hara whether he would like ppl to acknowledge his Pro3 is faster than a nitro and i bet he would laugh at you.No official body will ever be crazy enuff to let nitro and electric compete.So y argue?drive both.

Btw in the real world , electric cars arent even mass produced yet.Ford made gas cars years ago.so they win there , we electric guys win on the track.
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Old 12-15-2002, 10:52 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by lee82gx
I have an electric TC.
I'm saving some money to buy a NTC3.If u want nitro to smoke electric , drive your nitro and leave the electric in ur pit.vice-versa.
I want both and I intend to have fun.
U guys who compete here arent pro's(i think)so u cant really represent the racing ppl.Ask Hara whether he would like ppl to acknowledge his Pro3 is faster than a nitro and i bet he would laugh at you.No official body will ever be crazy enuff to let nitro and electric compete.So y argue?drive both.

Btw in the real world , electric cars arent even mass produced yet.Ford made gas cars years ago.so they win there , we electric guys win on the track.
Hi Lee,
Yup. agree with you, FUN is the most impt thing here
Hmmm did meet with Hara a couple of times before, never asked him to do a comparision btw electric and gas.... just awe-struck by how fast he can drive a "loaner" car
Actually, last I checked, RC drag racing in US do have a "Race what u brung", electric and gas class. Read past issues of RCCA for details.
Abt mass produced electirc cars..... are you into golf???? Golf karts are batt powered.. so are milk floats last I heard
The issue here abt electric vehicles is that of the WEIGHT of the batteries. A 1/10 scale car weights 1/1000 times that of a full sized car.... similarly the batteries weight ABOUT 1/1000 times less... this bumps up the power to weight ratio in favour of SCALED down electric vehicles by quite a bit. Plus of coz, electric cars have much more linear trottle response and higher torque at spool up.
In a nut shell, given similar conditions I would say electric cars will turn in faster lap times in smaller tight circuits and nitro in circuits where there are longer straights.
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Old 12-15-2002, 11:32 PM   #53
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Hey Nightkdz
can i bring a rocket powered rc to the drag race?
Actually Im well aware of the batt.vehicle thingy as im studying mech.engineering.Now why do i run electric cars when my fellow mechers would mock me?i think it's the way of the future.Electricty(flow of electrons) as source of energy is far more convenient than ANY form of energy.Talk about efficiency,electrics dont waste as much energy.If i were to pack the same amount of energy in a electric car and a nitro car,guess who wins?forget speed , racing was actually to promote/showcase manufacturer products.Now if HPI were only to produce electric cars and say kyosho only gas cars...then i bet they would make a race and bite each others' ass.
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Old 12-15-2002, 11:47 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by lee82gx
Hey Nightkdz
can i bring a rocket powered rc to the drag race?
Actually Im well aware of the batt.vehicle thingy as im studying mech.engineering.Now why do i run electric cars when my fellow mechers would mock me?i think it's the way of the future.Electricty(flow of electrons) as source of energy is far more convenient than ANY form of energy.Talk about efficiency,electrics dont waste as much energy.If i were to pack the same amount of energy in a electric car and a nitro car,guess who wins?forget speed , racing was actually to promote/showcase manufacturer products.Now if HPI were only to produce electric cars and say kyosho only gas cars...then i bet they would make a race and bite each others' ass.
Lee, are you running brushless motors? If you're going for efficiency as you say, then that's what you should be running - get away from the measly 60% (typical high end) efficiency of brushed motors and get to the 85%+ of brushless.

Btw, Nitro 1/10th and 1/8th are two of the most efficient outputs of motors anywhere - 1+bhp from .12 cubic inches. . .? That's beyond what anyone outside of NHRA and IHRA is capable of doing.

Needless to say, nothing of what you said is material to the discussion at hand.

The discussion was started by someone from the Nitro thread tossing down the longstanding gauntlet - who is faster. The thread evolved into who is faster - within sanctioned legal limits. Obviously if I were running the new Fusion (Schumacher) - .21ci in a 1/10th scale with three speeds - I could put up faster straightline speed. That's immaterial.

So, cost came into the argument. I outlined exact numbers.

I'm not a pro and don't ask the pros to speak for me. I feel that since I am a racer, and I have a brain, I can speak for myself. I never claimed to speak for you, nor do I want to.

Please, if you're an undergraduate college student, show it with reasoned arguments that actually make sense (unless Crit Thought is next semester, in which case I'll wait).
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Old 12-15-2002, 11:50 PM   #55
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Default Re: Nitro Smokes Electric?

Quote:
Originally posted by popsracer
Having mostly race Nitro fo the past 3 yrs. I have just recently gotten back into Electric TC and most definiately agree that it is MUCH more work and expense to be competitive in electric.
I have also noticed that the competition in all of the electric classes is fierce (mucho hacking) while Nitro seems to be slightly more layed back. All in all, the more you diversify yourself. The better overall you will do in the hobby.
Basically, you've hit it on the head, although I was surprised at how much money I've spent on my elec equipment (and my listing is cheaper than what I actually have. . .sad, isn't it! )

The hacking is one reason I run with the Pro10 guys around here. . .we all know each other and we beat on each other if we hack. . .well, not really, but we keep each other in check quite a bit. (Actually, they keep ME in check, but we won't go there. . . )
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Old 12-15-2002, 11:55 PM   #56
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Boomer
Relax dude.i know i deviated but that wasnt really my intention.besides NItro smokes electric doesnt necessarily mean speed.Wouldnt that be a resonable argument?My discussion was actually meant to reply to nightkidz post.that's what's in my hands.I dont have the cash for brushless yet but im definitely getting one once i can afford it.
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Old 12-16-2002, 09:12 AM   #57
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Hi Lee,
I'm an electrical engineering undergrad. I did do some thermodynamic stuff in year 1.. last I recall, in terms of energy efficiency ( conversion of energy from fuel to locomotive energy), IC engines are not that great, abt 40%
I dun think using a rocket in a drag race is "in the spirit" of the competition hehehehe
I'm in Singapore, and the way things are run here... I wouldn't be too surprised if the authorities clam down on model engine emissions too hahahahaha It wouldn't matter then which "smokes" which then now would it?
Chill guys
Quote:
Originally posted by lee82gx
Hey Nightkdz
can i bring a rocket powered rc to the drag race?
Actually Im well aware of the batt.vehicle thingy as im studying mech.engineering.Now why do i run electric cars when my fellow mechers would mock me?i think it's the way of the future.Electricty(flow of electrons) as source of energy is far more convenient than ANY form of energy.Talk about efficiency,electrics dont waste as much energy.If i were to pack the same amount of energy in a electric car and a nitro car,guess who wins?forget speed , racing was actually to promote/showcase manufacturer products.Now if HPI were only to produce electric cars and say kyosho only gas cars...then i bet they would make a race and bite each others' ass.
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Old 12-16-2002, 09:41 AM   #58
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I was actually responding to both your posts. . .

Quote:
I have an electric TC.
I'm saving some money to buy a NTC3.If u want nitro to smoke electric , drive your nitro and leave the electric in ur pit.vice-versa.
I want both and I intend to have fun.
U guys who compete here arent pro's(i think)so u cant really represent the racing ppl.Ask Hara whether he would like ppl to acknowledge his Pro3 is faster than a nitro and i bet he would laugh at you.No official body will ever be crazy enuff to let nitro and electric compete.So y argue?drive both.

Btw in the real world , electric cars arent even mass produced yet.Ford made gas cars years ago.so they win there , we electric guys win on the track.
In the entire thread, Nitro smokes Electric refers entirely to speed and cost.

The thing that set me off was your "U guys who compete here arent pro's(i think)so u cant really represent the racing ppl." Nobody claimed to be a pro, noboby claimed to represent the racing "ppl" and nobody claimed to be doing anything but having a fun discussion about who's faster, electric or nitro.
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Old 12-16-2002, 09:55 AM   #59
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Ok im sorry.didnt mean to hurt ppl.just cleaning my closet.But really all u ppl are a little too serious in this discussion.Maybe you are serious racers and care about your cars , thats good.
but if u want to make scientific/factual argument between a nitro car and an electric car , then u must understand that in science u can only measure/compare two quantities/qualities IF and only IF u set everything constant with only 1 variable so that u can measure and compare.u want to know which one faster?which one is heavier first?U want top speed or fastest time over a distance?how much energy each car consumes?that's a more defined way of comparing.
Ok now this is JUST my 2 cents.I like this forum
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Old 12-16-2002, 10:49 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by lee82gx
Ok im sorry.didnt mean to hurt ppl.just cleaning my closet.But really all u ppl are a little too serious in this discussion.Maybe you are serious racers and care about your cars , thats good.
but if u want to make scientific/factual argument between a nitro car and an electric car , then u must understand that in science u can only measure/compare two quantities/qualities IF and only IF u set everything constant with only 1 variable so that u can measure and compare.u want to know which one faster?which one is heavier first?U want top speed or fastest time over a distance?how much energy each car consumes?that's a more defined way of comparing.
Ok now this is JUST my 2 cents.I like this forum
I don't think it needs to be that scientific for this discussion. Common sense or racing experience will do just fine. When I think of "faster" I'm thinking lap times achievable over a certain time period. You mention hara, I would speculate if you put hara's pro 3 on any electric track and give him a top of the line gas car any scale, he's going to have better times with his pro3.

You put hara's pro3, stock or mod, on a track like Joyce Park in Hamilton, Ohio (where the recent ROAR nationals and 1/10th World Cup Gas were held), I don't think if you give him a competitive gas car that he's going to have much problem beating his electric times. That's not scientific, nor does it prove anything, but there's a lot to be said for common sense and practical experience.

Different strokes for different folks; they have different applications where they excel. Since MOST of the tracks in U.S. are smaller, you could say electric would be faster in most cases <= 8 minutes . But again - it's all about the track.

Last edited by patelladragger; 12-16-2002 at 01:41 PM.
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