1187Likeswtcc's TT-02 KR
07-21-2019, 03:35 AM
#271
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/photos/mercedes-amg-f1-w10-front-suspension/43072512/
Upright mounted pushrod to activate spring and damper. A simplified version of your set up.
See if you can get 1/12th shocks and springs to work as they're smaller to package.
Another idea, ulp shocks mounted on upright and upper inner camber ball stud.
Upright mounted pushrod to activate spring and damper. A simplified version of your set up.
See if you can get 1/12th shocks and springs to work as they're smaller to package.
Another idea, ulp shocks mounted on upright and upper inner camber ball stud.
07-22-2019, 01:23 PM
#272
@MatsNorway: No, I didn't use it since Bad Gögging. And since the last race I didn't find the time to play with any R/C car 
@fyrstormer & 30Tooth: I am sorry guys, but this time your ideas are not taking the rotation damper concept into account. Before I haven't proved this concept a total failure, I am not willing to go back to standard dampers
And the drawings are in a final stage now. Right now, I feel like I finished all what I wanted to add. I am also quite happy with the geometry and forms. If I want to add one more thing, than it is a heave spring. I just need more knowledge for it... Well, I will need to sleep over this idea. A first check just revealed, that I have no space on the arm to implement another lever. Additionally, I don't want to use a full shock, but a standard sized spring with a knurled nut, or makes it sense to use a standard TC damper (like an full ULP shock) for this task?
So, what's new? I redesigned the dustcover and the bulkheads underneath the carbon plates. The diff dust covers now slip between the carbon plates and then get attached with one screw. This time I made sure, that even the large 3racing diff will fit underneath. In the rear the bulkhead got changed on the motor side, to allow an easy motor removal.
Then I implemented the horizontal body posts. Therefore the rear carbon plate got extended.
In a last step I added my new logo to some parts.
The chassis looks like an UFO and not like a touring car... Time to order all the custom and standard production parts (like O-rings and Awesomatix parts) and start building
@fyrstormer & 30Tooth: I am sorry guys, but this time your ideas are not taking the rotation damper concept into account. Before I haven't proved this concept a total failure, I am not willing to go back to standard dampers
And the drawings are in a final stage now. Right now, I feel like I finished all what I wanted to add. I am also quite happy with the geometry and forms. If I want to add one more thing, than it is a heave spring. I just need more knowledge for it... Well, I will need to sleep over this idea. A first check just revealed, that I have no space on the arm to implement another lever. Additionally, I don't want to use a full shock, but a standard sized spring with a knurled nut, or makes it sense to use a standard TC damper (like an full ULP shock) for this task?
So, what's new? I redesigned the dustcover and the bulkheads underneath the carbon plates. The diff dust covers now slip between the carbon plates and then get attached with one screw. This time I made sure, that even the large 3racing diff will fit underneath. In the rear the bulkhead got changed on the motor side, to allow an easy motor removal.
Then I implemented the horizontal body posts. Therefore the rear carbon plate got extended.
In a last step I added my new logo to some parts.
The chassis looks like an UFO and not like a touring car... Time to order all the custom and standard production parts (like O-rings and Awesomatix parts) and start building
07-23-2019, 03:24 AM
#273
KR v3 chapter two Ordering parts 
Time to let this car become reality. Except for the upper bumper plate and the battery mount, every part is new or received a revision to make it better. The suspension concept change also calls for a lot of new standard parts from other manufacturers. Posting a list of these is the first step in this chapter:
1. 2x5mm countersunk screws, 8 pcs.
2. 3x6x2.5mm ballbearing, 2 pcs.
3. 3x7x2mm ballbearing, 8 pcs.
4. Xray 303801 T4 arb 1.1mm, 1pc.
5. Xray 303802 T4 arb 1.2mm, 1pc.
6. Xray 303803 T4 arb 1.3mm, 1pc.
7. Xray 303804 T4 arb 1.4mm, 1pc.
8. Xray 302379 T4 C-Hub 0* right, 1pc.
9. Xray 302380 T4 C-Hub 0* left, 1pc.
10. Xray 302254 T4 2017 steering arm, 2pcs.
11. ARC R104013 O-ring 13x1mm, 4pcs.
12. Awesomatix SPR01S soft springs, 4pcs.
13. Awesomatix P09X progrssive spring holder, 4pcs.
14. Tamiya 54868 ballcups, 4pcs.
15. Tamiya 54869 ballcups, 4pcs.
16. Tamiya 53892 turnbuckles 3x10mm, 2pcs.
17. Tamiya 53644 arb ball ends, 4pcs.
18. Tamiya 53906 ballstuds 5mm, 8pcs.
19. Tamiya 9803041 arb bearing holder, 4pcs.
20. Tamiya 54248 turnbuckles 3x23mm, 2pcs.
21. Yokomo YRX12 pitching damper set, 2pcs --> Yes! My heave dampers
These are all parts I need to order because they differ from earlier stages of this/or other projects. For the rotation damper pistonrods and small o-rings from the SLP shocks are needed, too, plus a lot of M3 screws in all sizes...
Time to let this car become reality. Except for the upper bumper plate and the battery mount, every part is new or received a revision to make it better. The suspension concept change also calls for a lot of new standard parts from other manufacturers. Posting a list of these is the first step in this chapter:
1. 2x5mm countersunk screws, 8 pcs.
2. 3x6x2.5mm ballbearing, 2 pcs.
3. 3x7x2mm ballbearing, 8 pcs.
4. Xray 303801 T4 arb 1.1mm, 1pc.
5. Xray 303802 T4 arb 1.2mm, 1pc.
6. Xray 303803 T4 arb 1.3mm, 1pc.
7. Xray 303804 T4 arb 1.4mm, 1pc.
8. Xray 302379 T4 C-Hub 0* right, 1pc.
9. Xray 302380 T4 C-Hub 0* left, 1pc.
10. Xray 302254 T4 2017 steering arm, 2pcs.
11. ARC R104013 O-ring 13x1mm, 4pcs.
12. Awesomatix SPR01S soft springs, 4pcs.
13. Awesomatix P09X progrssive spring holder, 4pcs.
14. Tamiya 54868 ballcups, 4pcs.
15. Tamiya 54869 ballcups, 4pcs.
16. Tamiya 53892 turnbuckles 3x10mm, 2pcs.
17. Tamiya 53644 arb ball ends, 4pcs.
18. Tamiya 53906 ballstuds 5mm, 8pcs.
19. Tamiya 9803041 arb bearing holder, 4pcs.
20. Tamiya 54248 turnbuckles 3x23mm, 2pcs.
21. Yokomo YRX12 pitching damper set, 2pcs --> Yes! My heave dampers
These are all parts I need to order because they differ from earlier stages of this/or other projects. For the rotation damper pistonrods and small o-rings from the SLP shocks are needed, too, plus a lot of M3 screws in all sizes...
07-24-2019, 06:34 AM
#275
Hehe, thanks!
I don‘t know if the parcel service and the shops are reading here, too
Because all the parts are already delivered 
On the pictures the Yokomo dampers are missing. To save some money and because I ordered them from swiss shop, my parents got them send to Switzerland. So I will get them on friday. Then I need to assemble them to make the final drawings for the heave damper layout.
I don‘t know if the parcel service and the shops are reading here, too
Because all the parts are already delivered 
On the pictures the Yokomo dampers are missing. To save some money and because I ordered them from swiss shop, my parents got them send to Switzerland. So I will get them on friday. Then I need to assemble them to make the final drawings for the heave damper layout.
08-04-2019, 06:00 AM
#277
Getting closer to production
Version3 wants a lot of attention. At least four times the amount of time I needed for version2. I spend hours to draw the heave damper and their surroundings. A lot of other parts got optimized and stronger. I redesigned the preload arms and mounts, the rear body posts and the carbon plate. Also the rear heave damper arms needed a very complex mount to fit the limited space. Overall the part geometry became much more complex and functional than before. Especially if I look back to version1. The new mount for the rear heave damper arm, for example, also carries the outer spring end and has the droop screw insert integrated. I came up with a cool way to mount it: First you press the droop screw insert part in the suspension arm, then you turn it to make it slide over and under the suspension arm and fix it with two screws
One last thing regards the heave damper mechanism. I only want the heave dampers to work if both sidesof the suspension compresses. In all other scenarios they should not affect the car. Therefore they need a kind of freedom between the arms...
Version3 wants a lot of attention. At least four times the amount of time I needed for version2. I spend hours to draw the heave damper and their surroundings. A lot of other parts got optimized and stronger. I redesigned the preload arms and mounts, the rear body posts and the carbon plate. Also the rear heave damper arms needed a very complex mount to fit the limited space. Overall the part geometry became much more complex and functional than before. Especially if I look back to version1. The new mount for the rear heave damper arm, for example, also carries the outer spring end and has the droop screw insert integrated. I came up with a cool way to mount it: First you press the droop screw insert part in the suspension arm, then you turn it to make it slide over and under the suspension arm and fix it with two screws
One last thing regards the heave damper mechanism. I only want the heave dampers to work if both sidesof the suspension compresses. In all other scenarios they should not affect the car. Therefore they need a kind of freedom between the arms...
08-04-2019, 01:01 PM
#278
Awesome work Kevin, I can't wait to see the final product assembly, keep on
08-06-2019, 12:07 AM
#279
Great work as always Kevin. If I understand correctly you have AMX leaf springs for side springs, heave damper and spring and roll bar. Technically if you have side and heave springs you don't need a roll bar, as roll is a product of heave and single wheel compression whichmakes both springs work together. You can run a roll bar but makes more sense if aero is top priority.
08-06-2019, 10:46 AM
#280
I really don’t know yet what will stay on the car after intensive testing.
The leaf spring and the heave damper do not fight chassis roll as far as I know. Chassis roll is in my concept, is prevented by the arb and the front spring load change when turning (was that what you meant?)
It would be cool to not have to use an arb in front
The leaf spring and the heave damper do not fight chassis roll as far as I know. Chassis roll is in my concept, is prevented by the arb and the front spring load change when turning (was that what you meant?)
It would be cool to not have to use an arb in front
08-06-2019, 12:42 PM
#281
The sooner you get parts produced the sooner you can start real testing. That's more critical than iterating endlessly imo, not that you're doing that.
About roll and its distribution on different springs, sort of. Heave will always have a portion of the roll, side springs obviously more so you can tune side springs more catered to roll than heave. It's like the serpent 4x. After testing you might end with no roll bar in front and with roll bar and heave spring/shock on the rear, you can only know after testing.
About roll and its distribution on different springs, sort of. Heave will always have a portion of the roll, side springs obviously more so you can tune side springs more catered to roll than heave. It's like the serpent 4x. After testing you might end with no roll bar in front and with roll bar and heave spring/shock on the rear, you can only know after testing.
08-07-2019, 07:31 PM
#283
Tech Master
Ill be honest. I never understood the term “pack” when people describe the fluid in a damper. I understand flow, pressure and volume but pack just hasnt turned into a concept that I can think with. I understand the concept of you heave damper but not well enough to say i know which direction the damper rod will move when the chassis lifts of gets closer to the ground.
if force is proportional to the pressure and area of the piston (damper) one side of the piston has less area than the other because of the rod displacement. The side of piston without the rod is called the blind side. In compression for arm damping the fluid travels from rod to blind side and blind side to rod side in rebound.
Is there a spring on your damper? Which direction will compression and rebound be translated through the damper? Are there any concerns of damping force being different in both directions? I believe you can work it out in the field through trial and error. However the rotary and flap damper have the same area on both sides which creates the same damping ratio in compression and rebound which is not something I have seen mentioned by awesomatix. I cant say its good or bad because its different and damping on sprung to unsprung has a rule of thumb of 3:1. Its not a rule rc follows and we have survived. I havent wrapped my mind around the masses that you are looking to control with your heave control.
Rebound displacement should be faster than compression displacement to maintain traction but it gets complicated in your heave system when your flaps look like they will at some point add to the damping in heave. What happens when everything is compressed and goes into rebound.
It might be something to complicated to conceptualize and I’ll just have to wait.
if force is proportional to the pressure and area of the piston (damper) one side of the piston has less area than the other because of the rod displacement. The side of piston without the rod is called the blind side. In compression for arm damping the fluid travels from rod to blind side and blind side to rod side in rebound.
Is there a spring on your damper? Which direction will compression and rebound be translated through the damper? Are there any concerns of damping force being different in both directions? I believe you can work it out in the field through trial and error. However the rotary and flap damper have the same area on both sides which creates the same damping ratio in compression and rebound which is not something I have seen mentioned by awesomatix. I cant say its good or bad because its different and damping on sprung to unsprung has a rule of thumb of 3:1. Its not a rule rc follows and we have survived. I havent wrapped my mind around the masses that you are looking to control with your heave control.
Rebound displacement should be faster than compression displacement to maintain traction but it gets complicated in your heave system when your flaps look like they will at some point add to the damping in heave. What happens when everything is compressed and goes into rebound.
It might be something to complicated to conceptualize and I’ll just have to wait.
08-08-2019, 02:01 AM
#284
Tech Addict
Not sure what you are after Bry. Long post, but the suspension wheels/arms will not notice any difference in what direction the heave damper is mounted. Compression is compression regardless of which side is mounted where.
Running a fairly open ruleset he could run his car lower than normal ?
And with less weight transfer in braking and acceleration he can go more aggressive with the wheel angles which is a positive in the twisty bit. as he can have soft enough suspension for normal or more added traction in corners in general.
Another benefit of the third spring is that any diffuser he might find to work gets a more constant height to work at. making the performance of it more stable and predictable.
It can also be used to avoid the car from squatting excessively at the straights from the rear wing load, say he runs a XL rear wing.
If all this is worth the extra weight remains to be seen.
I like that you can have heave and stabilizers at the same time. So you can test with and without back to back and see how things work on the lap times. The car is crazy and i love it. But he added a bit much at once so this will take time. The dampers alone is a huge amount of work to get right typically.
I still see one problem with freedom of movement for the damper but i have been waiting for an explanation or you to see it or assumed you have a fix for it i have not caught. As the suspension moves up the damper mount in the suspension will move away from the suspension. So it needs to slide or have a link.
Running a fairly open ruleset he could run his car lower than normal ?
And with less weight transfer in braking and acceleration he can go more aggressive with the wheel angles which is a positive in the twisty bit. as he can have soft enough suspension for normal or more added traction in corners in general.
Another benefit of the third spring is that any diffuser he might find to work gets a more constant height to work at. making the performance of it more stable and predictable.
It can also be used to avoid the car from squatting excessively at the straights from the rear wing load, say he runs a XL rear wing.
If all this is worth the extra weight remains to be seen.
I like that you can have heave and stabilizers at the same time. So you can test with and without back to back and see how things work on the lap times. The car is crazy and i love it. But he added a bit much at once so this will take time. The dampers alone is a huge amount of work to get right typically.
I still see one problem with freedom of movement for the damper but i have been waiting for an explanation or you to see it or assumed you have a fix for it i have not caught. As the suspension moves up the damper mount in the suspension will move away from the suspension. So it needs to slide or have a link.
08-08-2019, 07:20 AM
#285
)If force is proportional to the pressure and area of the piston (damper) one side of the piston has less area than the other because of the rod displacement. The side of piston without the rod is called the blind side. In compression for arm damping the fluid travels from rod to blind side and blind side to rod side in rebound.
Yes. I just was to lazy to draw it.
Now that I see the mistake I feel completly stupid. The preload arms that also act as arms to compress the heave spring will just move 0.5mm to the middle of the car under full load (front of the car on the ground) . So the compression of the heave damper is nearly zero ...and that is the reason why I don't want to rush this version. Somehow I never saw an error here. Back to the drawing board...
