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Old 02-16-2006, 11:03 PM   #46
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I am getting 21 to 22 thousand rpms and 75 watts at 7.0 torque with 4499s and f brushes in mine on a ce dyno. About 1 thousand rpms lower then a really good monster .. But it doesnt get hot like a monster and i know it will go at least 1 tooth higher on gear..
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Old 02-16-2006, 11:22 PM   #47
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Oh, and the motor was incredibly cool at under 116 degrees before being geared up.
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Old 02-16-2006, 11:39 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deedit
I am getting 21 to 22 thousand rpms and 75 watts at 7.0 torque with 4499s and f brushes in mine on a ce dyno. About 1 thousand rpms lower then a really good monster .. But it doesnt get hot like a monster and i know it will go at least 1 tooth higher on gear..
at what amp draw?
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Old 02-17-2006, 05:33 AM   #49
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Marcos, that has to be in the 15-18 amp range.

deedit,

If this motor is supposed to have higher torque, what are your numbers in the 22,25,28 amp ranges.

Just a note for you guys tuning these. I know people beat you to death about aligning the hoods and yes that should be done but nobody says to size them first. This is very important if you are running the F brush because it is slightly under sized and will cock more in the hood if you dont size it right.

I noticed with my motors that if I sized the hoods to closely match the brush that alignment was almost always correct from the factory or was more easily adjusted. Sizing would net me about 4-6 watts more accross the board and they would be more consistant through a run without as much fade.

Greg
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Old 02-17-2006, 07:22 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg45231
Marcos, that has to be in the 15-18 amp range.

deedit,

If this motor is supposed to have higher torque, what are your numbers in the 22,25,28 amp ranges.

Just a note for you guys tuning these. I know people beat you to death about aligning the hoods and yes that should be done but nobody says to size them first. This is very important if you are running the F brush because it is slightly under sized and will cock more in the hood if you dont size it right.

I noticed with my motors that if I sized the hoods to closely match the brush that alignment was almost always correct from the factory or was more easily adjusted. Sizing would net me about 4-6 watts more accross the board and they would be more consistant through a run without as much fade.

Greg
mine is pulling 25702 rpm's 96 watts 76 ef @18.1 amps
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Old 02-17-2006, 08:40 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg45231
Thanks teamgp.

Everyone here is going brushless so I sold my turbo 45 to Curtis at DC Motorsports. I don't trust the numbers from anything else but a CE because you can't make sense of the data.

Look forward to seeing what you come up with.

Thanks,

Greg
My first impression is that when tuned right, the Trinity CO27 gives torque like a P2K2 and rpm kind of in the middle of a Monster and a P2K2. The real performance increase over both predecessors is in the middle and top end where the power curve is pretty impressive.

Here is some info regarding the state of the motor as received. The motor was acquired at the birds as a "pro" version. When taken apart and checked, the comm was indeed true and the balance seemed great (based on experience, but don't have any way of accurately validating it). The hood was only barely out of alignment (but I'm a very nitpicky person regarding these things ). However, the shimming seemed to be the standard and I can only assume, from the results of re-zapping the can, that the magnets had lost some of their flavor. Below are the CE dyno results as received. Pay attention to the 28A reading for top end power and the 20A reading for low end, per Big Jim.

RPM---TORQ---WATT---EF---AMPS
29210---2.0---44---41---15.1
27859---2.9---61---48---18.0
25793---4.1---79---56---20.1
21910---6.7---109---62---25.0
20299---7.8---117---59---27.9
18405---8.9---121---57---30.1

I have provided the latest CE dyno results from my current top Monster motor (which also has significant accolades associated with it from its previous owner). I used it as the baseline motor and target numbers for tuning the CO27. This motor is a "torquey" Monster that needs to be geared up one extra tooth from most other Monsters. It was tuned very similar to the CO27, but had better results with a Putnam blue/green brush combo.

RPM---TORQ---WATT---EF---AMPS
24614---4.2---76---72---15.0
23432---5.3---92---73---17.9
22654---6.0---101---71---20.0
21045---7.5---117---66---25.0
20183---8.3---124---63---27.9
19467---8.9---128---60---30.1

As you can see, the bottom end power is down by 7 watts and the top end is also down a whopping 22 watts. Please keep in mind that this difference is only seen when compared to a proven and record setting Monster. The initial CO27 numbers are actually decent when compared to most monsters. However, tuning was clearly needed in order to maximize its potential. Here are the tuning details for the CO27 post initial dyno run (my current preferential beginning treatment for monsters):

* Skimmed the comm
* Re-aligned the hood (was barely off) and re-set the little flexible metal tension thingamajigs that hold the brushes down (not sure what they are called) I didn't resize the hoods though.
* Re-zapped the magnets and re-shimmed the comm (I may have missed the mark on centering the can, since the shimming was completely biased toward the hood end )
* Replaced the stock brushes with F brushes on + and -
* Drilled a hole in both brushes (not sure of the bit size, but it's the same diameter as 769's)
* Shaved the trailing edges (take as much as needed off to get rid of the pre-existing diagonal cut on the corners of the brush)
* Used +258 (Integy spring dyno) and -246 springs. I started with +242 and -230, but heavier tension yielded much better results for low end power with a very slight increase in top end. The tension combo compares to a purple and red combination bent a tad bit on the stiff side.
* Break-in/pre-dyno technique:
...1) @2.0v for 300s using Zubak's Speed Juice method
...2) Clean thoroughly with motor spray
...3) @2.0v for 300s in "special sauce" for bushing seating, further brush seating, and squeeky clean motor
...4) Clean thoroughly with motor spray again
...5) Lube bushings and apply 3 comm drops down both brush hoods

Dyno results post tune:

RPM---TORQ---WATT---EF---AMPS
23420---4.6---80---76---15.0
22379---5.7---95---75---17.9
21318---6.6---104---73---20.0
19164---8.6---121---69---25.0
17957---9.6---127---64---27.9
16959---10.1---127---60---30.1

When comparing the post tune CE dyno numbers of the Monster and the CO27, the latter started to give about 3% more power at the bottom end. It maintains this power increase through the middle of the curve and actually rises to +5% at the extreme top end. The CO27's performance gain comes from a greater torque increase than its loss in rpm over the other top-of-the-line monster.

I'll be testing the CO27 today in practice on our local track and may take a qualifier DQ in tomorrow's race day in order to get some actual race lap times. I'm assuming that gearing will probably be somewhere in between the two predecessor Trinity motors, while leaning more towards the P2K2 final ratio.

I haven't tried other brush combos on the CO27 yet, but will get to it in the near future.
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Last edited by teamgp; 02-17-2006 at 09:24 AM.
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Old 02-17-2006, 08:43 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teamgp
My first impression is that when tuned right, the Trinity CO27 gives torque like a P2K2 and rpm kind of in the middle of a Monster and a P2K2. The real performance increase is in the middle and top end where the power curve is pretty impressive.

Here is some info regarding the state of the motor as received. The motor was acquired at the birds as a "pro" version. When taken apart and checked, the comm was indeed true and the balance seemed great (based on experience, but don't have any way of accurately validating it). The hood was only barely out of alignment (but I'm a very nitpicky person regarding these things ). However, the shimming seemed to be the standard and I can only assume, from the results of re-zapping the can, that the magnets had lost some of their flavor. Below are the CE dyno results as received. Pay attention to the 28A reading for top end power and the 20A reading for low end, per Big Jim.

RPM---TORQ---WATT---EF---AMPS
29210---2.0---44---41---15.1
27859---2.9---61---48---18.0
25793---4.1---79---56---20.1
21910---6.7---109---62---25.0
20299---7.8---117---59---27.9
18405---8.9---121---57---30.1

I have provided the latest CE dyno results from my current top Monster motor (which also has significant accolades associated with it from its previous owner). I used it as the baseline motor and target numbers for tuning the CO27. This motor is a "torquey" Monster that needs to be geared up one extra tooth from most other Monsters. It was tuned very similar to the CO27, but had better results with a Putnam blue/green brush combo.

RPM---TORQ---WATT---EF---AMPS
24614---4.2---76---72---15.0
23432---5.3---92---73---17.9
22654---6.0---101---71---20.0
21045---7.5---117---66---25.0
20183---8.3---124---63---27.9
19467---8.9---128---60---30.1

As you can see, the bottom end power is down by 7 watts and the top end is also down a whopping 22 watts. Please keep in mind that this difference is only seen when compared to a proven and record setting Monster. The initial CO27 numbers are actually decent when compared to most monsters. However, tuning was clearly needed in order to maximize its potential. Here are the tuning details for the CO27 post initial dyno run (my current preferential beginning treatment for monsters):

* Skimmed the comm
* Re-aligned the hood (was barely off)
* Re-zapped the magnets and re-shimmed the comm (I may have missed the mark on centering the can, since the shimming was completely biased toward the hood end )
* Replaced the stock brushes with F brushes on + and -
* Drilled a hole in both brushes (not sure of the bit size, but it's the same diameter as 769's)
* Shaved the trailing edges (take as much as needed off to get rid of the pre-existing diagonal cut on the corners of the brush)
* Used +258 (Integy spring dyno) and -246 springs. I started with +242 and -230, but heavier tension yielded much better results for low end power with a very slight increase in top end. The tension combo compares to a purple and red combination bent a tad bit on the stiff side.

Dyno results post tune:

RPM---TORQ---WATT---EF---AMPS
23420---4.6---80---76---15.0
22379---5.7---95---75---17.9
21318---6.6---104---73---20.0
19164---8.6---121---69---25.0
17957---9.6---127---64---27.9
16959---10.1---127---60---30.1

As you can see, when comparing the post tune CE dyno numbers, the CO27 started to give about 3% more power at the bottom end. It maintains this power increase through the middle of the curve and actually rises to +5% at the extreme top end. The CO27's performance gain comes from a greater torque increase than its loss in rpm over the other top-of-the-line monster.

I'll be testing the CO27 today in practice on our local track and may take a qualifier DQ in tomorrow's race day in order to get some actual race lap times. I'm assuming that gearing will probably be somewhere in between the two predecessor Trinity motors, while leaning more towards the P2K2 final ratio.

I haven't tried other brush combos on the CO27 yet, but will get to it in the near future.

try the f brush with purple on positive and green on the negative at 30 amps its pulling 132 watts
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Old 02-17-2006, 08:47 AM   #53
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here are the dyno #'s
rpm torq watt ef amps
33363 1.3 32 30 15.2
28508 4.0 85 68 17.9
27013 3.9 79 51 21.8
23500 6.0 79 51 24.9
20897 8.2 126 64 27.9
19602 9.1 132 62 30.1

these are with the f-brushes full face(no cuts or holes)

magnets rezapped
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Old 02-17-2006, 09:10 AM   #54
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Will try the softer neg spring Marcos.

BTW,

For another comparison, here are the numbers from my #1 practice motor (I use it sparingly to get a feel for real race pace once the car is handling well) which I also took the time to "freshen" up, in the same manner as the CO27, and dyno last night:

RPM---TORQ---WATT---EF---AMPS
27066---3.6---72---68---15.0
25063---4.8---88---69---17.9
23746---5.7---100---70---20.0
21552---7.5---119---67---25.0
20334---8.4---126---64---27.9
19244---8.9---126---59---30.1
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Old 02-17-2006, 09:16 AM   #55
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I did a second motor with the F-brushes again with red and green spring combo (break in 500 sec @2.0 volts no fan on the motor)

rpm torq watt ef amps
29713 2.3 52 50 15.0
27076 3.4 69 54 18.0
24051 5.8 104 67 22.0
22875 6.3 107 61 24.9
20226 8.5 127 65 28.0
19717 8.7 127 60 30.1

the #'s with the F-brush seem to get better after the 2nd and 3rd run
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Old 02-17-2006, 09:18 AM   #56
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Thanks for the numbers teamgp and marcos.

Glad to see something out there without screaming rpm and no torque. Should run cooler and be easier to gear.

Thanks again,

Greg
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Old 02-17-2006, 09:18 AM   #57
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Doh! I'll edit my post above and give the break-in details as well.
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Old 02-17-2006, 09:24 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teamgp
Will try the softer neg spring Marcos.

BTW,

For another comparison, here are the numbers from my #1 practice motor (I use it sparingly to get a feel for real race pace once the car is handling well) which I also took the time to "freshen" up, in the same manner as the CO27, and dyno last night:

RPM---TORQ---WATT---EF---AMPS
27066---3.6---72---68---15.0
25063---4.8---88---69---17.9
23746---5.7---100---70---20.0
21552---7.5---119---67---25.0
20334---8.4---126---64---27.9
19244---8.9---126---59---30.1

This would be the better motor.. Look at the 20 amp Watts. very nice - good job..

Marcos J.

Confused on these readings from your post:

rpm torq watt ef amps
33363 1.3 32 30 15.2
28508 4.0 85 68 17.9
27013 3.9 79 51 21.8
23500 6.0 79 51 24.9
20897 8.2 126 64 27.9
19602 9.1 132 62 30.1


At the 21.8Amp mark and the 24.9 the Watts are the same while the Torque value changed? Typo I presume?
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Old 02-17-2006, 09:27 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgullickson
At the 21.8Amp mark and the 24.9 the Watts are the same while the Torque value changed? Typo I presume?
It probably stayed the same because of the huge increase in rpm as it spun up.
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Old 02-17-2006, 09:32 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teamgp
It probably stayed the same because of the huge increase in rpm as it spun up.



it was a typo
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