Like Tree698Likes

Handout motors

Old 11-14-2018, 05:10 AM
  #676  
Tech Adept
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 108
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by rccartips View Post
Tamiya is smart, they created their own racing series for the past 20 years where motors are handout. Also same battery, esc, tires. Classes had limitations on chassis to be allowed. For me, single manufacturer funded spec series was enjoyable (e.g. Kyosho World Cup, Neo Cup, TCS, etc.)
For open manufacturer racing, needed in classes where power is key (mini, stock tc).
But racing is also sometimes a technology/manufacturer battle, not a parity race.
So depends on your goal as an organizer. Promote racing where technological development is part of the excitement of racing (e.g Trinity vs Reedy), or go for varying degrees of parity (spec equipment).
Both already exist in the r/c world with success. It is not one is better than another.
I too have participated in the TCS races and concur it was excellent fun and really was about driver skill and a good time.
Rckstar759 is offline  
Old 11-14-2018, 05:33 AM
  #677  
Tech Lord
iTrader: (8)
 
Billy Kelly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Far south suburbs of Chicago area
Posts: 14,563
Trader Rating: 8 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by rccartips View Post
Tamiya is smart, they created their own racing series for the past 20 years where motors are handout. Also same battery, esc, tires. Classes had limitations on chassis to be allowed. For me, single manufacturer funded spec series was enjoyable (e.g. Kyosho World Cup, Neo Cup, TCS, etc.)
For open manufacturer racing, needed in classes where power is key (mini, stock tc).
But racing is also sometimes a technology/manufacturer battle, not a parity race.
So depends on your goal as an organizer. Promote racing where technological development is part of the excitement of racing (e.g Trinity vs Reedy), or go for varying degrees of parity (spec equipment).
Both already exist in the r/c world with success. It is not one is better than another.
Unfortunately over here in the States. Tamiya closed its home track in California. And currently no info for if there will be a 2019 series

https://www.tamiyausa.com/blog/final...amiya-raceway/
Billy Kelly is offline  
Old 11-14-2018, 07:06 AM
  #678  
Tech Champion
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 9,031
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default

Oh boy where to start. Sorry hanulec I have to.

Motor tuning. Stock was never meant to be a class for motor tuners. The class was always meant to be the class you started in to get your skills up so you can race modified. It was supposed to be a class where everyone had the same power, and you didn't have to spend a bunch of money to be competitive. A long time ago that got horribly bastardized into a "racer" class and the original intent was lost. Fast forward to today where $150 stock motors were becoming the norm. You want to tune your motor? Fine, there's a class for that, it's called modified. And I don't care if you can do well with a cheaper motor. We're talking about people who aren't as good as you, and the only way they can keep up is with more motor.

Speed controls. In the beginning of the brushless era, the only way to add boost was to build a new speed control. But most racers got tired of spending money on ESC's way too often. Hence the introduction of blinky. Since them most SC's can be updated with software, which can be downloaded from the internet. Go to a big race with ESC X, only to find the Team X drivers have new software, they will usually gladly update yours for free. Now you're running the same SC as the team drivers. Some SC's are bluetooth capable, so now you set it up from your cell phone. Have we really come that far?

Hand out spec motors. This idea did not come from the middle of the pack racers whining about cheating. This idea came from racers at the top of the ladder, who saw racers leaving the hobby due to the cost. They knew they needed to do something to keep people racing. This wasn't something they pulled out of a hat. They put quite a bit of time and effort into the concept, and what you see today (the Can-Am series) is the result of their work. So far, I don't see any complaints from people who have actually raced it. Heck I wanna go try it. 360v2, arguably the home track for this idea, reports over 100 racers have signed up for this season. Sounds like people like this idea.
jiml is offline  
Old 11-14-2018, 07:15 AM
  #679  
R/C Tech Elite Member
iTrader: (28)
 
hanulec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: @ the post office
Posts: 9,630
Trader Rating: 28 (100%+)
Default

Lol @ Jim
I think I'm going to unsubscribe from this one. Have at it boys!
Marcos.J, jiml, DARKSIDE and 1 others like this.
hanulec is offline  
Old 11-14-2018, 08:44 AM
  #680  
Tech Adept
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 108
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by Billy Kelly View Post

Unfortunately over here in the States. Tamiya closed its home track in California. And currently no info for if there will be a 2019 series

https://www.tamiyausa.com/blog/final...amiya-raceway/
That stinks because they put on a great race and I saw lots of newcomers and kids doing it which totally helps the hobby
Rckstar759 is offline  
Old 11-14-2018, 08:46 AM
  #681  
Tech Elite
iTrader: (93)
 
chris moore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Phx AZ
Posts: 3,873
Trader Rating: 93 (99%+)
Default

Originally Posted by jiml View Post

Hand out spec motors. This idea did not come from the middle of the pack racers whining about cheating. This idea came from racers at the top of the ladder, who saw racers leaving the hobby due to the cost. They knew they needed to do something to keep people racing. This wasn't something they pulled out of a hat. They put quite a bit of time and effort into the concept, and what you see today (the Can-Am series) is the result of their work. So far, I don't see any complaints from people who have actually raced it. Heck I wanna go try it. 360v2, arguably the home track for this idea, reports over 100 racers have signed up for this season. Sounds like people like this idea.

I have seen some minor complaints but that aside this is nothing new, spec/handout canam (call it what you want) racing has been tried over and over again through the years. At first there is the hype and hoopla about how great this is how close the racing is (and sometimes it is) but every time in the past people find out that it doesn't change the fact that the fast guys win period. Guess what happens then, racers then look for excuses, this handout is a dog, he must be cheating, etc. etc. DR is correct that just because you attempt to level the motors racers do not instantly become amazing at getting a car to handle great, the fast guys are fast not because they can tune a motor (some can) but because they know how to get a car to carry corner speed and run very consistent lines. So because the slow guys are now still not winning they look for ways around the rules, because hey if everyone is still faster then everyone must be cheating lol. Racers come and go for many reasons and cost is one but it's only a small part of the equation, winning or the lack of is very tough for many to handle and it's my opinion that most quit because there is no instant gratification which so many people have been brought up to expect today. Motor costs are a drop in the bucket when manufactures put out new $500-$1000 chassis each year, and everyone has to have the latest and greatest new chasse. Guess what you could still have fun running a Bert special TC4, lol. The real problem (imo) is that everyone feels that they must win to have fun;it is a hobby after all fun should be the end game; and no amount of rules will solve that issue.


I'm not bashing canam or their efforts, I will say that the format doesn't interest me and luckily the few tracks around me are not doing it so I can still keep racing not specing. But the format is still in the honeymoon phase where everyone is jumping on board thinking that everyone has an equal shot at winning and so on and so forth. But when all the b main guys figure out that they are still in the b main and the only thing that has changed is they went from 4 laps down to 3 laps down, that's when we'll see if the canam/handout format has any legs or will it just be another rinse and repeat. A friend once said "the more rules the more the incentive to break the rules" and I will say I have seen this to be true. History can be a powerful teacher if your willing to learn.
chris moore is offline  
Old 11-14-2018, 08:55 AM
  #682  
Tech Lord
iTrader: (8)
 
Billy Kelly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Far south suburbs of Chicago area
Posts: 14,563
Trader Rating: 8 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by Rckstar759 View Post
That stinks because they put on a great race and I saw lots of newcomers and kids doing it which totally helps the hobby
The series itself may still be around. Just didnít not see any schedule for it. And last year it looked to have started in January. So itís getting kinda late for there to be no info.
Billy Kelly is offline  
Old 11-14-2018, 09:43 AM
  #683  
Tech Regular
iTrader: (7)
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: CT
Posts: 333
Trader Rating: 7 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by chris moore View Post
I have seen some minor complaints but that aside this is nothing new, spec/handout canam (call it what you want) racing has been tried over and over again through the years. At first there is the hype and hoopla about how great this is how close the racing is (and sometimes it is) but every time in the past people find out that it doesn't change the fact that the fast guys win period. Guess what happens then, racers then look for excuses, this handout is a dog, he must be cheating, etc. etc. DR is correct that just because you attempt to level the motors racers do not instantly become amazing at getting a car to handle great, the fast guys are fast not because they can tune a motor (some can) but because they know how to get a car to carry corner speed and run very consistent lines. So because the slow guys are now still not winning they look for ways around the rules, because hey if everyone is still faster then everyone must be cheating lol. Racers come and go for many reasons and cost is one but it's only a small part of the equation, winning or the lack of is very tough for many to handle and it's my opinion that most quit because there is no instant gratification which so many people have been brought up to expect today. Motor costs are a drop in the bucket when manufactures put out new $500-$1000 chassis each year, and everyone has to have the latest and greatest new chasse. Guess what you could still have fun running a Bert special TC4, lol. The real problem (imo) is that everyone feels that they must win to have fun;it is a hobby after all fun should be the end game; and no amount of rules will solve that issue.


I'm not bashing canam or their efforts, I will say that the format doesn't interest me and luckily the few tracks around me are not doing it so I can still keep racing not specing. But the format is still in the honeymoon phase where everyone is jumping on board thinking that everyone has an equal shot at winning and so on and so forth. But when all the b main guys figure out that they are still in the b main and the only thing that has changed is they went from 4 laps down to 3 laps down, that's when we'll see if the canam/handout format has any legs or will it just be another rinse and repeat. A friend once said "the more rules the more the incentive to break the rules" and I will say I have seen this to be true. History can be a powerful teacher if your willing to learn.
All the truth in that post. Always easier to blame something else then look for a fix when you think you should be winning all the time.

A motor will never replace Practice, its just hard for some people to accept that. But if a track can help eliminate one factor of difference then maybe it can help increase the pit spots needed.
Robbob is offline  
Old 11-14-2018, 11:36 AM
  #684  
Tech Champion
 
Roelof's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Holland
Posts: 9,680
Default

Originally Posted by Robbob View Post
All the truth in that post. Always easier to blame something else then look for a fix when you think you should be winning all the time.

A motor will never replace Practice, its just hard for some people to accept that. But if a track can help eliminate one factor of difference then maybe it can help increase the pit spots needed.
As mentioned, I have seen plenty. Most common was a friend who as an experienced gas driver started stock racing at the club. When using a same motor/esc combo with a same FDR you would expect no large differences but there was. And so wihin a year he was gone.
In those days they used the old ETS Speedpassion setup with a limited FDR. Compared with most drivers he was standing still. A toplevel Dutch driver admitted he had to mount an illegal rotor to keep up the others (speed on the straight), one was caught with different electronics in his ESC but replacing the 35A FET board by the 60A one was more common or what I have seen once all FET's were replaced by better ones. More and more became known as like shifting sensors due forcing the sensor board a smal rotation or resoldering sensors on the endtips of the solder tabs.
Before I made a FDR measuring tool people were using different diff pulleys to cheat on the factory given internal ratio. And even with gas racing we were playing with a new inspection camera to look inside exhausts and the next day it was (how strange ) more quiet on the track.

Face it, cheating is done, if people have huge speeds and power compaired with the rest there is just something going on.
Roelof is offline  
Old 11-14-2018, 11:52 AM
  #685  
Tech Adept
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 108
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by Robbob View Post
All the truth in that post. Always easier to blame something else then look for a fix when you think you should be winning all the time.

A motor will never replace Practice, its just hard for some people to accept that. But if a track can help eliminate one factor of difference then maybe it can help increase the pit spots needed.
Thats definate truth. Nothing will ever top controller time, Ever
Rckstar759 is offline  
Old 11-14-2018, 12:00 PM
  #686  
Tech Fanatic
 
RobS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Chatham, Ontario
Posts: 958
Default

Originally Posted by Roelof View Post
Face it, cheating is done, if people have huge speeds and power compaired with the rest there is just something going on.
Not saying that isn't the case in some circumstances, but a lot of people just assume some drivers must cheating when they get beat... Not because the faster guy knows how to setup a car and keep corner speeds up better then others. Its hard for people to admit that somebody else might just be the better racer.
iTz Nicholas72 likes this.
RobS is offline  
Old 11-14-2018, 12:03 PM
  #687  
Tech Champion
iTrader: (2)
 
DARKSIDE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Nashville-Memphis
Posts: 9,404
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by hanulec View Post
Lol @ Jim
I think I'm going to unsubscribe from this one. Have at it boys!
me too... but if I may...for you guys not interested in the AMX Can-Am Series, just dont do it...run other classes...real simple...and even if your track is Can-am, if you have 3 or 4 guys that think like you and want 17.5 TC, I dont know a track owner that will turn you down. Hey Im by no means a fan of handout motors, but I understand what they are at least trying to do...will there be loop holes and issues, hell yeah... but thats normal for any series.

try it or not...but dont complain about it....and yes the guys in Can-am are aware of issues...but you have to give them time to work out the bugs
bertrandsv87 likes this.
DARKSIDE is offline  
Old 11-14-2018, 02:06 PM
  #688  
Tech Elite
iTrader: (2)
 
gigaplex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Melbourne, VIC
Posts: 3,550
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by chris moore View Post
but every time in the past people find out that it doesn't change the fact that the fast guys win period.
This gets repeated over and over. The point isn't to stop the fast guys being fast. It's to prevent the slower guys quitting the hobby over spending wars.
gigaplex is offline  
Old 11-15-2018, 12:46 AM
  #689  
Tech Champion
 
Roelof's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Holland
Posts: 9,680
Default

Originally Posted by gigaplex View Post
This gets repeated over and over. The point isn't to stop the fast guys being fast. It's to prevent the slower guys quitting the hobby over spending wars.
And to keep the slower guys racing. Smaller differences will give them hope,
jiml and PDR like this.
Roelof is offline  
Old 11-15-2018, 05:24 AM
  #690  
Tech Adept
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 157
Default

The slower guys need to race among themselves to have fun. Just like the faster guys have more fun racing among themselves. Back in the old days, 27t, the place I raced at had one type of car but 4 different classes based on ability; novice, intermediate, advanced, and expert. The shop owner decided what ability class you raced in and when it was time for you to move up. It was a lot of fun and there wasn't much whining going on. If a racer doesn't have a chance of winning he can lose interest after a while. That's my 2 cents.

Rich
rccartips and Billy Kelly like this.
FunStuff is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.