698LikesHandout motors
03-14-2018, 07:54 AM
#46
Because as per the last event, multiple (most? all?) brands were affected from what I heard. If that's true, and you put a blanket ban on every motor from those product lines, there wouldn't be any legal motors left to run.
03-14-2018, 07:55 AM
#47
I think one that one person was on to something. I may have misinterpreted it and they already said this.
I think every manufacturer could build a spec locked timing motor to the same spec deminsions set forth by ROAR. Same exact size rotor sensor boards, stator and can length. Everything interchangeable. That way manufacturers could still be different in can design and they could still be competitive at the manufacturing level by what company can build the highest quality spec product. Another way is the Muchmore kv limited esc that’s used across the pond.
I think every manufacturer could build a spec locked timing motor to the same spec deminsions set forth by ROAR. Same exact size rotor sensor boards, stator and can length. Everything interchangeable. That way manufacturers could still be different in can design and they could still be competitive at the manufacturing level by what company can build the highest quality spec product. Another way is the Muchmore kv limited esc that’s used across the pond.
03-14-2018, 08:12 AM
#48
Fair question, I'm not sure. Maybe the testing equipment wasn't as good back then, so the allowed tolerances were greater? Or they weren't checked as stringently? I wasn't involved with that stuff back then.
Because as per the last event, multiple (most? all?) brands were affected from what I heard. If that's true, and you put a blanket ban on every motor from those product lines, there wouldn't be any legal motors left to run.
Because as per the last event, multiple (most? all?) brands were affected from what I heard. If that's true, and you put a blanket ban on every motor from those product lines, there wouldn't be any legal motors left to run.
03-14-2018, 08:19 AM
#49
I spoke with a friend who actually knows more than I about the tolerance issues and now that I have a better understanding of what goes into the making of a brushless motor I can understand why the cost is more. So, how do we get the costs down, or at least try to keep from playing the motor of the week game? Possibly let timing etc back into the speed controls with a fixed endbell motor? Personally I would like to see that, maybe with knocking the classes down a motor, say 17.5 would be 21.5 but you could use timing boost etc. Just spit ballin here....
03-14-2018, 08:25 AM
#50
Maybe Tekin had the advantage then, but not now. Just about every manufacture of ESC's has a program box of some sort to make changes if we were to get out of blinky. I know my hobbywing's have that capability, as do Tekin, SMC, and others as well. As far as cost I have spent close to $200 each in both my pan cars for ESC's, which is about the norm. Yes it's an upfront expense but after that you're good to go for a long time, unless you plug the battery in backwards. And now that we are allowed to change drive frequencies many guys already have the program boxes in the pits anyway. I think it's a simple cost effective solution.
03-14-2018, 08:48 AM
#51
Tech Master
iTrader: (6)
At Stockwars Paul had taken the time to go thru a large batch of spec motors, tuning each and every one so that they all performed as near to identical as possible. That worked great, but all that tuning and tweaking surely took him a very long time to accomplish. And then there's the need to tech the motors to make sure that nobody was messing with any of Paul's settings. All that worked great but that level of effort was surely cumbersome. So, at our club, we decided to keep it more simple. Our spec motors do have adjustable timing and, for the sake of simplicity, we decided to allow the racers to adjust the timing to suit their own personal preference....eliminating the need for batch matching and for careful tech inspections. Our simplistic approach has worked out just fine because the main goals of spec motor racing are still being accomplished. Even with different timing and gearing choices, our spec motor cars are still remarkably similar in speed. And the main things are that: #1) our motor costs are no longer crazy expensive, and #2) nobody feels like they are getting run over by somebody who's got the latest and greatest (aka expensive) motor. It doesn't need to get complicated. Just pick a decent and affordable motor and everybody run that same motor. The same guys are going to win anyway...so the keys are to make things simple, and to make guys feel as if the playing field is relatively level (knowing and admitting that some players are just more talented than others), and mostly to contain costs so that the racing can be fun and competitive and yet affordable.
03-14-2018, 09:05 AM
#52
At Stockwars Paul had taken the time to go thru a large batch of spec motors, tuning each and every one so that they all performed as near to identical as possible. That worked great, but all that tuning and tweaking surely took him a very long time to accomplish. And then there's the need to tech the motors to make sure that nobody was messing with any of Paul's settings. All that worked great but that level of effort was surely cumbersome. So, at our club, we decided to keep it more simple. Our spec motors do have adjustable timing and, for the sake of simplicity, we decided to allow the racers to adjust the timing to suit their own personal preference....eliminating the need for batch matching and for careful tech inspections. Our simplistic approach has worked out just fine because the main goals of spec motor racing are still being accomplished. Even with different timing and gearing choices, our spec motor cars are still remarkably similar in speed. And the main things are that: #1) our motor costs are no longer crazy expensive, and #2) nobody feels like they are getting run over by somebody who's got the latest and greatest (aka expensive) motor. It doesn't need to get complicated. Just pick a decent and affordable motor and everybody run that same motor. The same guys are going to win anyway...so the keys are to make things simple, and to make guys feel as if the playing field is relatively level (knowing and admitting that some players are just more talented than others), and mostly to contain costs so that the racing can be fun and competitive and yet affordable.
03-14-2018, 09:41 AM
#53
Maybe Tekin had the advantage then, but not now. Just about every manufacture of ESC's has a program box of some sort to make changes if we were to get out of blinky. I know my hobbywing's have that capability, as do Tekin, SMC, and others as well. As far as cost I have spent close to $200 each in both my pan cars for ESC's, which is about the norm. Yes it's an upfront expense but after that you're good to go for a long time, unless you plug the battery in backwards. And now that we are allowed to change drive frequencies many guys already have the program boxes in the pits anyway. I think it's a simple cost effective solution.
03-14-2018, 09:52 AM
#54
Tech Master
iTrader: (6)
Exactly. Its been working fine for us with everybody using the very same Motiv motor (and they are fantastic) and we allow the racers to adjust timing as they see fit. What happens is that our guys share information freely and so we all wind up at pretty much the same timing and rollout anyway. This simple and casual spec motor approach has been working great for our club.
03-14-2018, 10:21 AM
#56
It really depends on where the locked timing is, if you set it at 40 degrees it would probably perform just fine, if you set it at 15 degrees they will be much slower than normal on the top end. If you lock it at 0, well you're just being mean and misunderstanding how motor systems work.
Another aspect of brushless motors is that if you mandated a certain timing number, say 30 degrees, you can play with the design of the stator and wind to have the motor perform better at that number. That is probably something you want to avoid now, as the genie is out of the bottle and very hard to get it back in again.
Really, ROAR kinda screwed up in the early days of brushless. A locked endbell rule earlier could have been a real advantage, BUT I remember the days of locked endbell brushed motors and the first thing I did when I got a new motor was get out my Brush Hood 'Alignment' Tool, loosen the screws, put the motor in my vice, and crank those brush hoods over so I had around 30 degrees of timing instead of 24. They ran really good after that!
03-14-2018, 11:25 AM
#57
After reading through this thread, and then the questions Ken asked initially. I think that there are at LEAST a few issues with the current stock format. In my opinion there are multiple solutions to this. I purpose a few ideas.
1. Establish a true set of rules that all of the "big" races comply to. While ROAR does a "job", I've head several people say that ROAR doesn't want to be the governing body of RC. Whether this is true or not, is unsubstantiated. This would include something to the effect of: Very specific rules that every motor manufacturer would have to comply to(much more strict than it is now). Motors have "evolved" but all that has changed majorly with the rules is the lower IR. Which is now gone, I can't even find the post where this was announced anymore. Which leads me to think that there is collusion, which is illegal in the "real world". Let the "master rule list" be published in public places, where all can read. In my opinion the motor of the month thing does exist, at a club level unless youre racing, with the 1% guys that win the national level events... motor of the year on the other hand does...
2. At these large races take tech out of the box, let the racers know what their motors got. Moreover, it should be public. Maybe 3 strikes your out type of deal, where a person who techs a motor, has to say who it is for, with a serial number sticker. If that person has 3 dq's then they cannot race a class with a spec motor for that race. If it happens 3 times in the year at the "big" events. That person cannot race spec motor classes for the rest of the year. (this does have some assumptions attached to it). There is a 2nd stipulation that has to enforced with the first. The 2nd is that if the same manufacturer has x amount of motors at a large event DQ they are DQ from the spec motor class for that particular race. This first being that there is currently people/manufacturers "fiddling" with their motors and they are no longer in compliance with the rules. This means that they are purposefully trying to gain an unfair advantage. To ensure this happens please read #3.
3. A complete tear down of motors at said governing body, again these need to be posted publicly, maybe with a video of inspector x take a motor that is in a new sealed box, take it completely apart, down to stripping the wire of the lamination and measuring it. Having this knowledge public does have a few disadvantages, and advantages. The manufacturers cant pass "crap" for quality, there should be a certain level of morality associated with anyone's business, and I think that are some who have ethics and some that do not. The downside is, if your motor isnt up to par, then that manufacturer probably isn't going to sell motors until it is.
4. If you place 1 or 2 in the majority of the races that you have raced, with spec motor. That racer should moved up to the mod class for that the next year ONLY(the following year that racer should be allowed to race spec motors again). This would ensure that the guys that "always" win at the big races, do not always win. (There are a variety of reasons that they win, most of being driving/tuning ability). Which is why they should take that talent to the class where the "pros" run.
As for which classes need it most, definitely the 1s classes. I've ran 5 different "major" motors in my touring car this year, and while the throttle points where different for most of them. I gained no speed. All of these brands "sort" their motors, (in which I hope that they ethically decides what passes), as opposed to brands that do not.
The motor of the month does not particularly exist in 2s application, unless you bought a motor that isnt up to par to begin with, most likely from a manufacturer who doesn't do a "motor of the year". Like I said before, each "generation" of motors is getting better, and as a majorily closes together in terms of performance(IF MANUFACTURERS FOLLOW RULES, and governing bodies don't let motors pass tech that shouldnt...)
I have in my possession a motor that should not pass tech, and it did at 2 large races this year, due to lower IR than what is acceptable(by ROAR standards, with the same conditions that ROAR test IR at). This motor is being retired, because I found this out at the last race I was at(Not from tech). How is that acceptable? Who is allowing this to happen?
We do live in a capitalistic society, and I am thankful for that. I think that each manufacturer will still be able to compete if we follow the above. I truly believe that if everyone "played" by the "rules" this thread would not exist.
I would not mind a fixed timing/gearing/wind etc. As long as that is competitive at tracks that do not do this, or if that motor can be used at different large races. I refuse to buy a motor at every racing event I want to attend, plus one to compete at a club level. Or even if my club did go spec motor, I still have to buy one at every large event I go to... For every spec motor class I race. Thats 4 times the amount of money I spent on motors this year. I bought 3 17.5 motors, 1 13.5 and 1 21.5 motor this year. As I did last year, we do have motors of the year. I think that it would be a good idea, but for the sake of cost, I would probably just blow my car up in mod... haha As opposed to buy 100-150 bucks in spec motors every race. Spec motors do not compete with the new motors, and that is unfortunate. Maybe we "de-tune" the not locked motors to 1 slow them the hell down, and 2, compete with locked motors.
In my opinion if we do a handout motor, something that has a little power would be kind of nice, for the 1s classes like 13.5 or 10.5 I think 17.5 or 21.5 would be fine for 2s application. That way in the 1s classes, (where battery REALLY matters, the battery doesn't matter "as much").
This is my 2 cents.
1. Establish a true set of rules that all of the "big" races comply to. While ROAR does a "job", I've head several people say that ROAR doesn't want to be the governing body of RC. Whether this is true or not, is unsubstantiated. This would include something to the effect of: Very specific rules that every motor manufacturer would have to comply to(much more strict than it is now). Motors have "evolved" but all that has changed majorly with the rules is the lower IR. Which is now gone, I can't even find the post where this was announced anymore. Which leads me to think that there is collusion, which is illegal in the "real world". Let the "master rule list" be published in public places, where all can read. In my opinion the motor of the month thing does exist, at a club level unless youre racing, with the 1% guys that win the national level events... motor of the year on the other hand does...
2. At these large races take tech out of the box, let the racers know what their motors got. Moreover, it should be public. Maybe 3 strikes your out type of deal, where a person who techs a motor, has to say who it is for, with a serial number sticker. If that person has 3 dq's then they cannot race a class with a spec motor for that race. If it happens 3 times in the year at the "big" events. That person cannot race spec motor classes for the rest of the year. (this does have some assumptions attached to it). There is a 2nd stipulation that has to enforced with the first. The 2nd is that if the same manufacturer has x amount of motors at a large event DQ they are DQ from the spec motor class for that particular race. This first being that there is currently people/manufacturers "fiddling" with their motors and they are no longer in compliance with the rules. This means that they are purposefully trying to gain an unfair advantage. To ensure this happens please read #3.
3. A complete tear down of motors at said governing body, again these need to be posted publicly, maybe with a video of inspector x take a motor that is in a new sealed box, take it completely apart, down to stripping the wire of the lamination and measuring it. Having this knowledge public does have a few disadvantages, and advantages. The manufacturers cant pass "crap" for quality, there should be a certain level of morality associated with anyone's business, and I think that are some who have ethics and some that do not. The downside is, if your motor isnt up to par, then that manufacturer probably isn't going to sell motors until it is.
4. If you place 1 or 2 in the majority of the races that you have raced, with spec motor. That racer should moved up to the mod class for that the next year ONLY(the following year that racer should be allowed to race spec motors again). This would ensure that the guys that "always" win at the big races, do not always win. (There are a variety of reasons that they win, most of being driving/tuning ability). Which is why they should take that talent to the class where the "pros" run.
As for which classes need it most, definitely the 1s classes. I've ran 5 different "major" motors in my touring car this year, and while the throttle points where different for most of them. I gained no speed. All of these brands "sort" their motors, (in which I hope that they ethically decides what passes), as opposed to brands that do not.
The motor of the month does not particularly exist in 2s application, unless you bought a motor that isnt up to par to begin with, most likely from a manufacturer who doesn't do a "motor of the year". Like I said before, each "generation" of motors is getting better, and as a majorily closes together in terms of performance(IF MANUFACTURERS FOLLOW RULES, and governing bodies don't let motors pass tech that shouldnt...)
I have in my possession a motor that should not pass tech, and it did at 2 large races this year, due to lower IR than what is acceptable(by ROAR standards, with the same conditions that ROAR test IR at). This motor is being retired, because I found this out at the last race I was at(Not from tech). How is that acceptable? Who is allowing this to happen?
We do live in a capitalistic society, and I am thankful for that. I think that each manufacturer will still be able to compete if we follow the above. I truly believe that if everyone "played" by the "rules" this thread would not exist.
I would not mind a fixed timing/gearing/wind etc. As long as that is competitive at tracks that do not do this, or if that motor can be used at different large races. I refuse to buy a motor at every racing event I want to attend, plus one to compete at a club level. Or even if my club did go spec motor, I still have to buy one at every large event I go to... For every spec motor class I race. Thats 4 times the amount of money I spent on motors this year. I bought 3 17.5 motors, 1 13.5 and 1 21.5 motor this year. As I did last year, we do have motors of the year. I think that it would be a good idea, but for the sake of cost, I would probably just blow my car up in mod... haha As opposed to buy 100-150 bucks in spec motors every race. Spec motors do not compete with the new motors, and that is unfortunate. Maybe we "de-tune" the not locked motors to 1 slow them the hell down, and 2, compete with locked motors.
In my opinion if we do a handout motor, something that has a little power would be kind of nice, for the 1s classes like 13.5 or 10.5 I think 17.5 or 21.5 would be fine for 2s application. That way in the 1s classes, (where battery REALLY matters, the battery doesn't matter "as much").
This is my 2 cents.
03-14-2018, 11:53 AM
#59
This yr I spent ;
$165 for a 5%certified 17.5
3x$140 EATuned motors 17.5
1x $80 max 17.5
2x $40 copper rotors
6x$150 TSR 2.0 "the one"
That's $1645 for one season of racing for 3/4 classes (me and Matt 2 each)
All but 2 motors passed tech every race (the 5%certified only passed indoor champs) ...
If spec handout motors were to be used next season ... 4major events (iic/champs/birds/roar) 2 classes each (Matt & i)
And handout motors were $50 each thats only $800 for basically 16 motors . and hell if they were rental motors for the event and was $30 each to rent even better ... I would buy one motor to club race with and then just show up to event install handout and apply spec gearing and go race ! No sitting at home dynoing motors and adjusting sensor alignment and checking rotors... I would have so much more free time to build curbs and Flex-track lol I'm sold on handout . if its not handout next season we might not attend . can't wait for handout !
$165 for a 5%certified 17.5
3x$140 EATuned motors 17.5
1x $80 max 17.5
2x $40 copper rotors
6x$150 TSR 2.0 "the one"
That's $1645 for one season of racing for 3/4 classes (me and Matt 2 each)
All but 2 motors passed tech every race (the 5%certified only passed indoor champs) ...
If spec handout motors were to be used next season ... 4major events (iic/champs/birds/roar) 2 classes each (Matt & i)
And handout motors were $50 each thats only $800 for basically 16 motors . and hell if they were rental motors for the event and was $30 each to rent even better ... I would buy one motor to club race with and then just show up to event install handout and apply spec gearing and go race ! No sitting at home dynoing motors and adjusting sensor alignment and checking rotors... I would have so much more free time to build curbs and Flex-track lol I'm sold on handout . if its not handout next season we might not attend . can't wait for handout !
03-14-2018, 12:02 PM
#60
This yr I spent ;
$165 for a 5%certified 17.5
3x$140 EATuned motors 17.5
1x $80 max 17.5
2x $40 copper rotors
6x$150 TSR 2.0 "the one"
That's $1645 for one season of racing for 3/4 classes (me and Matt 2 each)
All but 2 motors passed tech every race (the 5%certified only passed indoor champs) ...
If spec handout motors were to be used next season ... 4major events (iic/champs/birds/roar) 2 classes each (Matt & i)
And handout motors were $50 each thats only $800 for basically 16 motors . and hell if they were rental motors for the event and was $30 each to rent even better ... I would buy one motor to club race with and then just show up to event install handout and apply spec gearing and go race ! No sitting at home dynoing motors and adjusting sensor alignment and checking rotors... I would have so much more free time to build curbs and Flex-track lol I'm sold on handout . if its not handout next season we might not attend . can't wait for handout !
$165 for a 5%certified 17.5
3x$140 EATuned motors 17.5
1x $80 max 17.5
2x $40 copper rotors
6x$150 TSR 2.0 "the one"
That's $1645 for one season of racing for 3/4 classes (me and Matt 2 each)
All but 2 motors passed tech every race (the 5%certified only passed indoor champs) ...
If spec handout motors were to be used next season ... 4major events (iic/champs/birds/roar) 2 classes each (Matt & i)
And handout motors were $50 each thats only $800 for basically 16 motors . and hell if they were rental motors for the event and was $30 each to rent even better ... I would buy one motor to club race with and then just show up to event install handout and apply spec gearing and go race ! No sitting at home dynoing motors and adjusting sensor alignment and checking rotors... I would have so much more free time to build curbs and Flex-track lol I'm sold on handout . if its not handout next season we might not attend . can't wait for handout !
