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Handout motors

Old 04-06-2018, 10:40 PM
  #496  
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Originally Posted by TryHard View Post
Been following this thread for a while with interest.

To throw my 2c in.

We have recently implimented a control motor for our 21.5t class out here in Australia, for racing at sanctioned events (states and nationals). Now this is a control, not handout, but bare with me.

The reason behind going this route was that following a survey of active racers, almost 60% were in favour of restricting the motors in what is our, entry-level class. In the discussion around it, a lot of reasons came up, $200+ motors, closesness of competition etc.

Anyway, after the first method of a pure handout model was rejected, we have ended up with a racer owned control motor.

We actually tested a lot of different motors supplied from our local distributors, and ended up selecting a version of the R1 V16. The key point is that whilst the motors are owned by the racers, at each event they will be teched (and are easily identifiable if the stator, rotor etc has been changed), set to the same Kv level (2400Kv) and then sealed to make sure they can't be adjusted.
We actually selected a motor still with adjustable timing instead of a fixed endbell for this reason, as we are confident that we can minimal variation across the motors (and potentially also allows for a performance increase by simply upping the Kv at no cost to racers).
Gearing has been left open, so to allow some adjustability to cars, driving style, and track size.

The motors in question are being sold for $120aud, but we have also taken to having rental motors avaible for those who are unable or unwilling to invest for events. And those motors are treated exactly the same as the purchased ones.

Yes, there have been some hiccups with the initial setup and setting, but thats more to do with the tools available than anything else. Lessons learnt, plans change and future batches will be far smoother.

First event with the motors is next weekend at our QLD state titles. And the fact that 100 motors were basically sold out within a week is encouraging!

Were the tools faulty? Or were they not the correct tools for the task?
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Old 04-06-2018, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by nexxus View Post
Were the tools faulty? Or were they not the correct tools for the task?
Not as precise as promised. And the manufactuer has admitted as much, and are bringing out a revised version.
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Old 04-07-2018, 01:00 AM
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Originally Posted by TryHard View Post
Not as precise as promised. And the manufactuer has admitted as much, and are bringing out a revised version.
What's the quote about a workman and their tools?

Bottom line is any control motor class which relies on a 3rd party to 'match' motors will only work if done properly with the correct tools. In this case, the motolyser was used to match KV, now the motolyser is a nice (and expensive) tool. But it's not MEANT to be used to match motors by kv. The motolyser website even says as much

Now, as against control motors as I am, I recognize that they are in place now, so I showed a way to ensure they CAN be matched correctly, I have attached it as a pdf, which also explains WHY the motolyser is not the right unit for the task.


I still have reservations about the motors, the QC of the ones I have seen has been pretty bad, bucket loads of play in the rotor (1-2mm) and the stator ring not even square with the can (which seems to be an R1 special, seen it in their 'premium' motors) but time will tell how they go at an event, first step is matching them correctly and using the right tools.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf
Set control Motors.pdf (1.15 MB, 102 views)
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Old 04-07-2018, 04:56 AM
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Originally Posted by nexxus View Post
The motolyser website even says as much
You keep saying this and it is incorrect. The FAQ you keep quoting doesn’t say what you think it says, and besides, it is also out of date. It relates to a function that used to be part of an older firmware

Last edited by cplus; 04-07-2018 at 05:45 AM.
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Old 04-07-2018, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by nexxus View Post
Originally Posted by TryHard View Post
Lessons learnt, plans change and future batches will be far smoother.
Were the tools faulty? Or were they not the correct tools for the task?
That's kind of irrelevant after they already conceded that lessons were learnt and they're making changes. Let's move on.
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Old 04-07-2018, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by gigaplex View Post
That's kind of irrelevant after they already conceded that lessons were learnt and they're making changes. Let's move on.
That's a matter of opinion really, as a racer I just want to see it done right, and rather than just bitch about what they are doing I have given them (and anyone else) a solution which works.

....granted the only thanks one gets is attitude and abuse but I'm at the point where that's pretty much expected so doesn't concern me.

I can see given that they purchased what, 3 motolysers (at how much each?) they have to rationalize the expenditure but it's not the right tool for the job.

And this should be a lesson to anyone else seeking a handout or control motor. If it's not done right with people with the appropriate knowledge base, then it won't work.
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Old 04-07-2018, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by nexxus View Post
That's a matter of opinion really, as a racer I just want to see it done right, and rather than just bitch about what they are doing I have given them (and anyone else) a solution which works.

....granted the only thanks one gets is attitude and abuse but I'm at the point where that's pretty much expected so doesn't concern me.

I can see given that they purchased what, 3 motolysers (at how much each?) they have to rationalize the expenditure but it's not the right tool for the job.

And this should be a lesson to anyone else seeking a handout or control motor. If it's not done right with people with the appropriate knowledge base, then it won't work.
I think you misinterpreted what I was getting at. They read your analysis (which was good work) and conceded that they needed to change things. There's no point bringing it up again in a different thread.
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Old 04-08-2018, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by gigaplex View Post
I think you misinterpreted what I was getting at. They read your analysis (which was good work) and conceded that they needed to change things. There's no point bringing it up again in a different thread.
Quite. And just to be clear, his analysis was one of a number of opinions considered, along with our own findings, and discussions with manufactures.
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Old 04-08-2018, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by gigaplex View Post
I think you misinterpreted what I was getting at. They read your analysis (which was good work) and conceded that they needed to change things. There's no point bringing it up again in a different thread.
QLD States will be interesting....
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Old 04-08-2018, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by nexxus View Post
QLD States will be interesting....
Yep, I'd be interested to see how it goes. Even without the need to re-match the KV ratings I think many motors would need to be resealed regularly anyway. I've only run mine at a couple of club days, and the sensor wire has almost rubbed the seal enough to break through already.
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Old 04-08-2018, 09:51 PM
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From a racer's perspective, the XRS format that's been run locally (spec motor, AUD75 and also available for hire on the day) has been fantastic. Drop it in, find some gearing. Job done. Now go find some chassis setup and clean lines.

Racing has been closer than I've ever experienced with nose-to-tail action for multiple laps. Fun to drive and good to watch.

I am really looking forward to the QLD titles this weekend. I've bought one motor and not worried about that

Phil.
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Old 05-01-2018, 09:19 AM
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Can-Am just posted a public doc--

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=251745935370957&id=2428146329 30754
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Old 05-01-2018, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by hanulec View Post
Anyway that can be posted somewhere for those not on facebook?

Thanks. :-)
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Old 05-01-2018, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by hanulec View Post
That's just freakin brilliant!

Mike can I make just one suggestion? Have one class where all the motor rules are in effect, but allow open speed controls. I think the hobby can use more speed control development. IMO SC programming can overcome any mechanical motor advantage someone may have. But it would have to be an advanced class. Slower classes should be blinky.

You could call it.....modified!
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Old 05-01-2018, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by jiml View Post
That's just freakin brilliant!

Mike can I make just one suggestion? Have one class where all the motor rules are in effect, but allow open speed controls. I think the hobby can use more speed control development. IMO SC programming can overcome any mechanical motor advantage someone may have. But it would have to be an advanced class. Slower classes should be blinky.

You could call it.....modified!
There will not be any open speedo classes. Its for SPEC to keep cost low and keep all cars the same speed. Speedo crap just causes more drama and kills the driveability of the cars.
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