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Handout motors

Old 04-05-2018, 04:28 PM
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This is getting insanely retarded, I'm ordering a nitro car and not dealing with it.. I'm hoping that one of the geniuses on here with all the answers can figure out how to make a bunch of grown ass men playing with little toy model cars agree on something sensible before fall. BTW, this is exactly what's wrong with the hobby and why its dying..
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Old 04-05-2018, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Racermac73 View Post
This is getting insanely retarded, I'm ordering a nitro car and not dealing with it.. I'm hoping that one of the geniuses on here with all the answers can figure out how to make a bunch of grown ass men playing with little toy model cars agree on something sensible before fall. BTW, this is exactly what's wrong with the hobby and why its dying..
They want this to be like video games, where all the cars are exactly the same.
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Old 04-05-2018, 05:46 PM
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[QUOTE=Racermac73;15202839]This is getting insanely retarded, I'm ordering a nitro car and not dealing with it.. I'm hoping that one of the geniuses on here with all the answers can figure out how to make a bunch of grown ass men playing with little toy model cars agree on something sensible before fall. BTW, this is exactly what's wrong with the hobby and why its dying..[/QUOTE
Just come and run with us. Our spec program works just fine.
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Old 04-05-2018, 06:08 PM
  #469  
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Default Who is R.O.A.R.?

Originally Posted by jiml View Post
Technically, no. But if you're looking for a handout motor you might as well start with ROAR legal.

So one of the problems to me in modern day rc in the U.S. is nobody cares about, nor supports R.O.A.R. yet, it's still expected that they should be the standard bearer, and rules makers for all non-member organizations.

Maybe a rc revolt and membership take over is in order, then a huge membership drive in an attempt to revitalize the member driven aspect of R.O.A.R. to flourish and grow.

Set brand new industry objectives and goals.

Lead the direction of competition and club racing, instead of playing a pawn to it.
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Old 04-05-2018, 09:34 PM
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Default How about this...

So, what if any or all ESC manufacturers have an RPM limiter built into the ESC or we use an external RPM limiting device? Something that does not allow a motor to turn RPM's past a logical limit that can be determined with a little data collected. If that was tied with an FDR limit, using the method that was mentioned as being under development, it would allow for any motor to be used since it will have a max RPM it could turn. Could torque then come into play, yes, in fact that would be a good bonus. Drivers would have to learn how to control their throttle finger enough to prevent over use of that torque, but at a set top speed that wouldn't create as much damage as in Mod class. This would train drivers for what it would take to handle driving Mod in the future, if they so desired to, but at less cost in damaged cars while learning that skill.

The other side effect will be that battery voltage will not play a part, since unless you dump your battery, the RPM is set to something the motor can produce at 7.4v, so even when a battery is at 8.4v, the motor will still only turn out the preset RPM.

FDR's can be adjusted based on the track. A little basic decision making by a track owner or club about what it should be, tight short tracks or long sweeping layout can determine what you decide is right. But once that FDR is set, unless a totally bad choice, leave it for that layout.

This seems like a win/win for all. Manufacturers can still work towards producing motors with better torque curves, or lower weight, or whatever else they want to go for, hell nicer color schemes, etc. Racers get to have close competition without all the extra money spent on batteries and motors of the week.

There are a couple option already in existence, one an ESC that Scorpion sells. It has three RPM choices. Another is a small device that goes between your ESC and motor sensor wire to limit RPM. Again it has 3 or 4 settings. G-force makes those. I know that the Scorpion ESC is already in use in Europe for spec F-1. I am sure any of the ESC manufacturers can do the same. With everything else they are programming into ESC's, you'd think they'd be ashamed if they said they could not do this simple thing.

For me, I would opt for a simple device that can be given out at any event that plugs in between your existing ESC and motor as the way to do it. That device is cheap, the G-force sells for $20., its small, and would allow racers to use any equipment they have already. Instead of making an adjustable version though, a simple, one RPM only version should be made. It would likely be even smaller, and should be sealed in such a way that it would be tamper proof. If one looks suspect, its cheap and easy to just change it out.

I also think that if you have new comers to the sport seeing that they have a chance, since all the cars are closer in speed, they are more likely to continue. If they have to throw a lot of money at the fastest motor this week, but find they still can't compete by doing that, they will disappear. If they can see light at the end of the tunnel, with the power not being the determining factor, they are more likely to try build their skill and keep racing. Its something most would prefer to do. Usually when something is enjoyable, most want to do it and then our numbers racing increase.

Have fun with close competition thats all about chassis set-up and driving skill. Oh wait, those are the main reasons why I race, and to be with friends that can smile together because they had good head to head competition and be able to bench race over a beer afterwards.

Maybe ROAR and other sanctioning bodies can go back to helping us by insuring our race programs from liability, and putting on events that more will want to attend.

I have been racing competitively for almost 50 years, 1/87th scale all the way to 1/1, just my 2 cents, for what its worth.

-Alex
:-)
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Last edited by oldrcr; 04-05-2018 at 10:23 PM.
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Old 04-05-2018, 09:48 PM
  #471  
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Default rpm vs power

Had a rpm limiter discussion years ago when LRP claimed to have one built in for sporstsman mode.

Recently had a similar conversation over a rpm limiting chip available.

My question during both conversations is... does RPM outweigh POWER?

If I have a motor that produces 120 watts at 10,000 rpm and a motor that produces 135 watts at 10,000 rpm, will they go the same speed ( I say NO ) - Just a new can of fish food.

Originally Posted by oldrcr View Post
So, what if any or all ESC manufacturers have an RPM limiter built into the ESC or we use an external RPM limiting device? Something that does not allow a motor to turn RPM's past a logical limit that can be determined with a little data collected. If that was tied with an FDR limit, using the method that was mentioned as being under development, it would allow for any motor to be used since it will have a max RPM it could turn. Could torque then come into play, yes, in fact that would be a good bonus. Drivers would have to learn how to control their throttle finger enough to prevent over use of that torque, but at a set top speed that wouldn't create as much damage as in Mod class. This would train drivers for what it would take to handle driving Mod in the future, if they so desired to, but at less cost in damaged cars while learning that skill.

The other side effect will be that battery voltage will not play a part, since unless you dump your battery, the RPM is set to something the motor can produce at 7.4v, so even when a battery is at 8.4v, the motor will still only turn out the preset RPM.

FDR's can be adjusted based on the track. A little basic decision making by a track owner or club about what it should be, tight short tracks or long sweeping layout can determine what you decide is right. But once that FDR is set, unless a totally bad choice, leave it for that layout.

This seems like a win/win for all. Manufacturers can still work towards producing motors with better torque curves, or lower weight, or whatever else they want to go for, hell nicer color schemes, etc. Racers get to have close competition without all the extra money spent on batteries and motors of the week.

There are a couple option already in existence, one an ESC that Scorpion sells. It has three RPM choices. Another is a small device that goes between your ESC and motor sensor wire to limit RPM. Again it has 3 or 4 settings. G-force makes those. I know that the Scorpion ESC is already in use in Europe for spec F-1. I am sure any of the ESC manufacturers can do the same. With everything else they are programming into ESC's, you'd think the'd be ashamed if they said they could not do this simple thing.

For me, I would opt for a simple device that can be given out at any event that plugs in between your existing ESC and motor as the way to do it. That device is cheap, the G-force sells for $20., its small, and would allow racers to use any equipment they have already. Instead of making an adjustable version though, a simple, one RPM only version should be made. It would likely be even smaller, and should be sealed in such a way that it would be tamper proof. If one looks suspect, its cheap and easy to just change it out.

I also think that if you have new comers to the sport seeing that they have a chance, since all the cars are closer in speed, they are more likely to continue. If they have to throw a lot of money at the fastest motor this week, but find they still can't compete by doing that, they will disappear. If they can see light at the end of the tunnel, with the power not being the determining factor, they are more likely to try build their skill and keep racing. Its something most would prefer to do. Usually when something is enjoyable, most want to do it and then our numbers racing increase.

Have fun with close competition thats all about chassis set-up and driving skill. Oh wait, those are the main reasons why I race, and to be with friends that can smile together because they had good head to head competition and be able to bench race over a beer afterwards.

Maybe ROAR and other sanctioning bodies can go back to helping us by insuring our race programs from liability, and putting on events that more will want to attend.

I have been racing competitively for almost 50 years, 1/87th scale all the way to 1/1, just my 2 cents, for what its worth.

-Alex
:-)
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Old 04-05-2018, 09:57 PM
  #472  
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Originally Posted by Roelof View Post
Is it?
A 60 dollar handout motor against a 400 dollar full tuned spec motor?
Why are people willing to buy a 400 dollar motor and probably another one as spare and whine about some extra fee for a much cheaper motor which you can swap if it is not good.?

I wonder who is buying these things. I bought a Trinity Monster out of my hobby shops glass case for normal price and put it 9th in the A main at the nats. No extra rotor, didn't swap the bearings, just set the timing and drove the car.
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Old 04-05-2018, 10:10 PM
  #473  
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Originally Posted by SWTour View Post
Had a rpm limiter discussion years ago when LRP claimed to have one built in for sporstsman mode.

Recently had a similar conversation over a rpm limiting chip available.

My question during both conversations is... does RPM outweigh POWER?

If I have a motor that produces 120 watts at 10,000 rpm and a motor that produces 135 watts at 10,000 rpm, will they go the same speed ( I say NO ) - Just a new can of fish food.

Yes, they will absolutely go the same speed. 10000 RPM with a limited FDR can only max out at one end speed. How fast they get to that top speed is still a variable, but is limited by traction at some point, which is why I stated that it teaches you how to control that power. Plus, a good set-up will also help you put that power down. Again, both needed skill to lower lap times, even with a limited top speed.

I don't know what the wattage differences between one 17.5 motor and another is, I can't speak to those wattage figures you are quoting. I do know that an absolute RPM, is that, you can't go beyond it. Not sure how you can say no. You will have to explain how 10000 RPM is not 10000 RPM that together with a limited FDR that will only allow the wheels to spin at a final driven speed.
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Old 04-05-2018, 10:30 PM
  #474  
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Default max - not only

because 10,000 rpm isn't absolute, its max/peak

but power pulls you harder let's say through the corners, then you rpm out on a straight. No motor runs peak/max rpm full track, not even our wide open oval cars



Originally Posted by oldrcr View Post
Yes, they will absolutely go the same speed. 10000 RPM with a limited FDR can only max out at one end speed. How fast they get to that top speed is still a variable, but is limited by traction at some point, which is why I stated that it teaches you how to control that power. Plus, a good set-up will also help you put that power down. Again, both needed skill to lower lap times, even with a limited top speed.

I don't know what the wattage differences between one 17.5 motor and another is, I can't speak to those wattage figures you are quoting. I do know that an absolute RPM, is that, you can't go beyond it. Not sure how you can say no. You will have to explain how 10000 RPM is not 10000 RPM that together with a limited FDR that will only allow the wheels to spin at a final driven speed.
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Old 04-05-2018, 10:44 PM
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How about using the scorpion club race kit esc that limits rpm.
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Old 04-05-2018, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by SWTour View Post
because 10,000 rpm isn't absolute, its max/peak

but power pulls you harder let's say through the corners, then you rpm out on a straight. No motor runs peak/max rpm full track, not even our wide open oval cars
No motor will run at full unloaded RPM while on the track, sure. But this RPM limiter will act on the loaded behaviour, so your motor should never go over it, and if you're going under it, the limiter isn't doing anything.

Someone else already addressed the torque difference in another comment.
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Old 04-05-2018, 11:18 PM
  #477  
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if im not mistaken, these rpm limiters dont care about power, voltage, torque, efficiency or amp draw... only rpm that the sensors see at or under any condition.

if on a small carpet track a car hits its max rpm at the end of a long straight away only, that is the only place that limiter is relevant.

full scale cars, ie: IMCA dirt ovalmodifieds use rpm chips in their ignition systems, and depending on setup efficiency, gearing, driving line etc. some guys get up on the chip 1/2 way down the straight away and just let the car run on the chip...but they rip through the corners. Others pull harder and max out the rpm just before they blip the throttle setting up the corner.

It's still just another GAME.

Originally Posted by gigaplex View Post
No motor will run at full unloaded RPM while on the track, sure. But this RPM limiter will act on the loaded behaviour, so your motor should never go over it, and if you're going under it, the limiter isn't doing anything.

Someone else already addressed the torque difference in another comment.
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Old 04-05-2018, 11:22 PM
  #478  
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Originally Posted by SWTour View Post
if im not mistaken, these rpm limiters dont care about power, voltage, torque, efficiency or amp draw... only rpm that the sensors see at or under any condition.

if on a small carpet track a car hits its max rpm at the end of a long straight away only, that is the only place that limiter is relevant.

full scale cars, ie: IMCA dirt ovalmodifieds use rpm chips in their ignition systems, and depending on setup efficiency, gearing, driving line etc. some guys get up on the chip 1/2 way down the straight away and just let the car run on the chip...but they rip through the corners. Others pull harder and max out the rpm just before they blip the throttle setting up the corner.

It's still just another GAME.
If the only time you're hitting the RPM limit is at the end of a long straight, then someone didn't do their job properly in setting an appropriate FDR and RPM limit and the whole thing is meaningless.
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Old 04-05-2018, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by SWTour View Post
because 10,000 rpm isn't absolute, its max/peak


but power pulls you harder let's say through the corners, then you rpm out on a straight. No motor runs peak/max rpm full track, not even our wide open oval cars
yes, but if a current car hits 12,000 on most average straights, 10,000 will be a limit anyone can hit. We won't know what is a good limit RPM is to go with, unless some testing is done, so we are just throwing theoretical numbers out there anyway.

Your second point is correct, that is the goal. Have enough power to pull through the corner faster, even too much, so breaking traction is possible. Drivers will learn to use that power more effectively. The RPM limit with FDR limit will limit top speed so battery voltage and motor max RPM will not be a factor. Set the RPM low enough that everyone will hit top speed. It won't be about top speed, but overall speed everywhere on the track. The part that needs to be figured out, with some testing, is a good RPM to go with. It may seem end up seeming slow to many at first, but in the long run, it will be worth it. I think many will find the challenge of using power and skill to get around corners faster more enjoyable.
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Old 04-05-2018, 11:30 PM
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Having been involved in a lot of different testing for different types of "limited/spec and/or breakout racing"
One thing that was learned is, no matter what you come up with that you think will equalize racers, racers find a way to ruin it.

Originally Posted by oldrcr View Post
yes, but if a current car hits 12,000 on most average straights, 10,000 will be a limit anyone can hit. We won't know what is a good limit RPM is to go with, unless some testing is done, so we are just throwing theoretical numbers out there anyway.

Your second point is correct, that is the goal. Have enough power to pull through the corner faster, even too much, so breaking traction is possible. Drivers will learn to use that power more effectively. The RPM limit with FDR limit will limit top speed so battery voltage and motor max RPM will not be a factor. Set the RPM low enough that everyone will hit top speed. It won't be about top speed, but overall speed everywhere on the track. The part that needs to be figured out, with some testing, is a good RPM to go with. It may seem end up seeming slow to many at first, but in the long run, it will be worth it. I think many will find the challenge of using power and skill to get around corners faster more enjoyable.
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