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Handout motors

Old 04-05-2018, 01:04 PM
  #451  
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I think we are discussing a limited time problem, I actually think for all the giant, glaring holes in the ROAR rules, they finally did something right

I think minimum resistance will bring the motors even closer in performance than they already are

ROAR Racing

Resistance determines current, which will control field strength, as the D3.5 proved, a small resistance improvement can make a huge difference, with a minimum spec in place all manufacturers will have motors within a small margin of the min spec and that will greatly reduce the already minimal difference between motor designs

Brushed motors showed ROAR a lot of tricks that could be done with winding and stack design, but with open timing most of that is nullified and brushed motor designs are the parents of many current rules, i.e. the "no flat wire" rule, just as one example

There's just not gonna be much difference in performance between motors much longer, if you can't move more electrons thru the windings, there isn't much more to do

And $150 for the best motor you can buy seems reasonable, I get irritated giving $500 out for a silly internal combustion engine, now that's nuts
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Old 04-05-2018, 01:17 PM
  #452  
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Originally Posted by Adamska27 View Post
I think we are discussing a limited time problem, I actually think for all the giant, glaring holes in the ROAR rules, they finally did something right

I think minimum resistance will bring the motors even closer in performance than they already are

ROAR Racing

Resistance determines current, which will control field strength, as the D3.5 proved, a small resistance improvement can make a huge difference, with a minimum spec in place all manufacturers will have motors within a small margin of the min spec and that will greatly reduce the already minimal difference between motor designs

Brushed motors showed ROAR a lot of tricks that could be done with winding and stack design, but with open timing most of that is nullified and brushed motor designs are the parents of many current rules, i.e. the "no flat wire" rule, just as one example

There's just not gonna be much difference in performance between motors much longer, if you can't move more electrons thru the windings, there isn't much more to do

And $150 for the best motor you can buy seems reasonable, I get irritated giving $500 out for a silly internal combustion engine, now that's nuts
Bigger wire and more of it to match the same total resistance will be a better performer than little wire, because bigger wire carries more current with less heat, and there are a lot more variable to field strength than resistance.
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Old 04-05-2018, 01:34 PM
  #453  
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I don’t think mod is the answer either. We have people at our track who can’t stay off the walls and not hit other cars running vta. Not to mention that it is more dangerous for the marshalls. I don’t think my local track is big enough to run mod (36x60), while I do understand that you don’t need to run the low turn mod motors, unfortunately that will not stop that guy with the unguided missile from doing so. I’ve seen bent chassis and broken top decks from 17.5, I can only image what a mod car is capable of.

And to the price of handouts, do you really think it will be buy 1 $60 handout. Or will it be buy 4 and you absolutely need that $400 motorlyser to check it because there won’t be any tuners touching them at that price? So now you are talking about sealed endbells and locked timing, which means you have to buy even more motors because manufacturing tolerances on these cheap motors will be crap.

When I came back to racing this year, I jumped up and down with joy at the fact that I could buy a top tier motor for $150, tuned and ready to go. I was ecstatic that I didn’t need to buy 5 motors at $80 a piece just to get that one good one, all I had to do was spend a little extra and get “The One”.

I do think handout motors have their place though. I believe they are a great thing for big events, most people are buying motors to go to big races anyways.
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Old 04-05-2018, 01:48 PM
  #454  
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Originally Posted by trilerian View Post
I don’t think mod is the answer either. We have people at our track who can’t stay off the walls and not hit other cars running vta. Not to mention that it is more dangerous for the marshalls. I don’t think my local track is big enough to run mod (36x60), while I do understand that you don’t need to run the low turn mod motors, unfortunately that will not stop that guy with the unguided missile from doing so. I’ve seen bent chassis and broken top decks from 17.5, I can only image what a mod car is capable of.

And to the price of handouts, do you really think it will be buy 1 $60 handout. Or will it be buy 4 and you absolutely need that $400 motorlyser to check it because there won’t be any tuners touching them at that price? So now you are talking about sealed endbells and locked timing, which means you have to buy even more motors because manufacturing tolerances on these cheap motors will be crap.

When I came back to racing this year, I jumped up and down with joy at the fact that I could buy a top tier motor for $150, tuned and ready to go. I was ecstatic that I didn’t need to buy 5 motors at $80 a piece just to get that one good one, all I had to do was spend a little extra and get “The One”.

I do think handout motors have their place though. I believe they are a great thing for big events, most people are buying motors to go to big races anyways.
buy 1 only allowed 1 simple
at big races they will be checked for parity
US Indoor Champs did this with motiv Mcode motors for $50 to the racer last year
Club scene will be easier, clubs will buy a smaller quantity of these motors from a supply with some control of the group of motors provided, easier to match with smaller batches
this is already being done at 3 or 4 tracks along the east coast with great success
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Old 04-05-2018, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by trilerian View Post

And to the price of handouts, do you really think it will be buy 1 $60 handout. Or will it be buy 4 and you absolutely need that $400 motorlyser to check it because there won’t be any tuners touching them at that price? So now you are talking about sealed endbells and locked timing, which means you have to buy even more motors because manufacturing tolerances on these cheap motors will be crap.
If your club isn't smart enough to implement one of the two below scenarios for spec motors, then yes, you could potentially have issues with someone hunting the fastest motor...

1. All motors are purchased on-site. You can buy ONE. They are marked and made tamper-proof. If the motor is found faulty or you destroy it, you will be able to purchase another motor.

2. Literal handouts. You pay $50 upfront to race a class and each week you get the luck of the draw motor. After racing is done for the day, you remove it and hand it back to the race director. It's up to the club to keep track of and maintain the motors.
-If you want to practice on non-race days with this method, you use what you already own or go purchase a spare.
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Old 04-05-2018, 02:04 PM
  #456  
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Its been said before but the handout option seems to be the best all around
there just needs to be a rental option at big races or even at small clubs/tracks
that way a person will not be stocking up on motors that might not be useable at other tracks in the future .
also if the spec motor has locked timing and decent speed capabilities a track could spec different gearing for different classes (stock/superstock)(usgt/superstock) there is some testing in the works with a few motors that would be perfect with this in mind .tho all this is doable in TC . in 1/12 its not as easy and wouldn't work as well if at all.
theirs also a tech tool being worked on right now that will further make tech a breeze checking fdr/rollout limits. cant wait for this to be available to tracks that do follow this plan of spec motors.
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Old 04-05-2018, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Adamska27 View Post
I get irritated giving $500 out for a silly internal combustion engine, now that's nuts
Making a good performance nitro engine does need more devellopment and precise machinery compared with an elecric motor. But yes, you have point that can be argued.....

I just spend 200 euro on my onroad .21 engines and make them run like 450 euro engines. These 200 euro Novarossi 35plus21 engines are on the market for arround 200 euro and the used materials are the same as the high performance 450 euro engines so only the port and crankshaft timings need to be stretched to boost the performance.
A few years ago I did it even with 140 euro 5-port engines. People were laughing at me but I had 4 own modified engines for the price of one modified they bought from the shelf and if one was blown up I could mount the next one with a big smile, they don't.

It is just a matter of understanding the technology and know what to do instead of buying from the shelf.
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Old 04-05-2018, 02:36 PM
  #458  
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Originally Posted by jlfx car audio View Post
theirs also a tech tool being worked on right now that will further make tech a breeze checking fdr/rollout limits. cant wait for this to be available to tracks that do follow this plan of spec motors.
I made that 5 years ago with huge succes on several races.
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Old 04-05-2018, 02:42 PM
  #459  
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Originally Posted by jiml View Post
You do realize you just took yourself out of the class, Mr. SpeedzoneUSA!
Totally ok with that
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Old 04-05-2018, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by miller tyme View Post
Bigger wire and more of it to match the same total resistance will be a better performer than little wire, because bigger wire carries more current with less heat, and there are a lot more variable to field strength than resistance.
So, yeah, that's nonsense

Cuz the rules read like this

8.4.7.2.7 ROAR Spec 17.5 motor: The three slotted stator must be wound with 17.5 turns of 2 strands
of a maximum diameter of .813 mm per slot. No motor will be approved with resistance less than 35.4
milliohms* between any 2 phases of the motor (AB, AC, BC), when measured at 25C with an Instek GOM
802 milliohm meter.


So, the stack length will be the minimum to make the resistance spec, and boom, u got a motor design
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Old 04-05-2018, 03:12 PM
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I guess you can't make a horse drink when you lead it to water. But me, I like choice, I like competition, and I like a free market. So please, no handouts where I race.
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Old 04-05-2018, 03:19 PM
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Nothing specific , just noticing something over the length of this thread. I wish that before someone can post a reply to a thread they have to read the entire thread and take a quiz that proves it. Then we wouldn’t be re hashing the same things over and over and over with the result being 31 pages of redundant discussion. Less posts, and better quality discussions would result.
This is only pointed at people that haven’t read the thread before posting. You know who you are !
LoL.
Carry on !
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Old 04-05-2018, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by biz77 View Post
I don't buy this argument.

You were probably going to go buy the newest, fastest, greatest motor you could get your hands on and that was going to run you $150. Handout motors should be around $50. You can now race at one additional track for the same $150. Attendance is up In addition, it's unlikely that a club will change their handout every year, so you should be able to get multiple seasons out of a handout motor versus having to go buy the newest fastest $150 motor for the season.
If the user keeps the motor and takes it home between rounds and seasons, that's not really handout, that's control.
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Old 04-05-2018, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Roelof View Post
I just spend 200 euro on my onroad .21 engines and make them run like 450 euro engines. These 200 euro Novarossi 35plus21 engines are on the market for arround 200 euro and the used materials are the same as the high performance 450 euro engines so only the port and crankshaft timings need to be stretched to boost the performance.

The exact same principle applies to electric motors. You don't have to buy tuned/certified/works team motors you can achieve the same result legally yourself.

Most racers don't spend $150 on a motor they spend $90-100.
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Old 04-05-2018, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Adamska27 View Post
So, yeah, that's nonsense

Cuz the rules read like this

8.4.7.2.7 ROAR Spec 17.5 motor: The three slotted stator must be wound with 17.5 turns of 2 strands
of a maximum diameter of .813 mm per slot. No motor will be approved with resistance less than 35.4
milliohms* between any 2 phases of the motor (AB, AC, BC), when measured at 25C with an Instek GOM
802 milliohm meter.


So, the stack length will be the minimum to make the resistance spec, and boom, u got a motor design
And yet a bunch of motors that were approved against these specs are currently failing tech.
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