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Handout motors

Old 03-23-2018, 06:28 AM
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huh nope no R1 in my stable...but yes I don't mind spending $150 on a motor with a company that's has a good rep on the product. and able to help me be faster.

What I'm asking is, IF the handout motor isn't across the board on a national level, what do we do?... I know motor companies can bid for a title sponsor for an event, like Birds, Champs ect....but after the event then what?....its not like example, Trinity will put up the motors for all the large events?...will they?... and if they did, what about the other companies out there. Reedy, Motiv, TSR, ect...do they get left behind cause nobody is using their motors?....or do we the racers continue to buy handout at every event we attend?...that would really suck to have a bunch of slower than normal handout motors that are useless after an event. Even if you only went to one event, that's still motors that you cant use, unless it happens to be the one your club is using.

Guys this handout motor thing sounds good, but the truth is it will only work if ROAR set very tight rules for handout motors for all companies to follow. Now will they do such a thing after just doing the revise on the rules this past winter?.... I wouldn't. I would like see what happens with the new rules over a period of time.

The other issue with this is if ROAR did the rules for the handout, who is to say the the company will keep it that tight. We saw what happen at the ROAR Nats, with the many motors not able to pass tech. The motor submitted isn't the motor on the shelf?...That's the same issue you will have with the handout.

Then you have the handout itself. We all know that tamper proof is BS. We all know that tricks will be discovered just like "back in the day" with twisting this, shaving that, ect ect....We will find a way to make the motor faster some how, And we know it.

all this to say this again....US the racers need to be BETTER with US.

give me the rules, let me pass tech, let me race....
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Old 03-23-2018, 06:57 AM
  #242  
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Originally Posted by DARKSIDE View Post
huh nope no R1 in my stable...but yes I don't mind spending $150 on a motor with a company that's has a good rep on the product. and able to help me be faster.

What I'm asking is, IF the handout motor isn't across the board on a national level, what do we do?... I know motor companies can bid for a title sponsor for an event, like Birds, Champs ect....but after the event then what?....its not like example, Trinity will put up the motors for all the large events?...will they?... and if they did, what about the other companies out there. Reedy, Motiv, TSR, ect...do they get left behind cause nobody is using their motors?....or do we the racers continue to buy handout at every event we attend?...that would really suck to have a bunch of slower than normal handout motors that are useless after an event. Even if you only went to one event, that's still motors that you cant use, unless it happens to be the one your club is using.

Guys this handout motor thing sounds good, but the truth is it will only work if ROAR set very tight rules for handout motors for all companies to follow. Now will they do such a thing after just doing the revise on the rules this past winter?.... I wouldn't. I would like see what happens with the new rules over a period of time.

The other issue with this is if ROAR did the rules for the handout, who is to say the the company will keep it that tight. We saw what happen at the ROAR Nats, with the many motors not able to pass tech. The motor submitted isn't the motor on the shelf?...That's the same issue you will have with the handout.

Then you have the handout itself. We all know that tamper proof is BS. We all know that tricks will be discovered just like "back in the day" with twisting this, shaving that, ect ect....We will find a way to make the motor faster some how, And we know it.

all this to say this again....US the racers need to be BETTER with US.

give me the rules, let me pass tech, let me race....
no if the motor tamper seals are broken it will not pass tech. that simple . if at a large event the motor will be pulled out and tested if its numbers fall beyond spec then it had been tampered with ...
on a club level it should be a rental thing .. like 360 does .. buy you a $40 motor if you want to take it home .. but you have to turn your race day motor in each day for it to be legal .. it will not be touched .

as for your other question about what about the other companies . what about them ... if they cant reduce the price enough to have there motor used in a given class at a event its there own fault ....
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Old 03-23-2018, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by jlfx car audio View Post
See thats the issie . manufactures are not able to make a legally faster motor but they can still sell motors that are below mandated specs cause that just means you buy one race it , tell someone hiw fast it is , they buy it ... So on .... You go to big race and your new motor you just bought since you club race your old motor, dont pass tech ... So do you buy another new motor since you have already spent $1k on this event or use your 50 race old motor ? Most of us serious racers will go buy another motor and hope it passes .. But now I'm stress ,rushed , passed , and $150 lighter (per class failed) so a handout Definately saves me time and stress and some money.
So you are one of those "guys", those serious racers (insert side splitting laughter here at the serious racer comment) who created motor of the week. ROAR has new rules in place to hold down prices and to some extent speed, but rather than wait and let those rules take hold a few of you want to jump the shark and force your idea of what should be done to fix what you see as a problem, a problem which guys like you created anyway. That's what this really boils down to in the end right.
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Old 03-23-2018, 07:15 AM
  #244  
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yea i would say im one of the 200 guys that will spend money and travel to events .
but me spending $1600 on motors in one season is for 2 people (me son and i) where as many will spend that on just themselves or more ..... so for the 200+- guys i know and speak with on a regular basis all feel the spec motor is a great idea. who wants to spend 2 hrs standing in line trying to tech motors that are off the shelf to find some didnt pass tho nothing had been done to them ? the manufacurers (not all but most) are milking our desire to be faster . unfortunately as R1 and trinity the motors are just not legal to use at these large events but dominate the club scene . speed sells . if myron don thave ar1 in his f1/vta he might be the only one that dont.... which means he is the only one at APEX with a legal motor (except the guys that attended roar nats )
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Old 03-23-2018, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by gigaplex View Post
So you've been back for a couple of months? You haven't seen the motor wars then. Over the past couple of years there were a lot of new motors that had a significant performance advantage over the previous generation. It got to the point where you basically wouldn't make the C main unless you either had the current hot motor, or were a superstar driver. What made it worse was that some of those motors were almost always out of stock. ROAR rules have changed recently which has slowed down that arms race but the bitterness over what happened still remains with many people. My personal experience is that I replaced my motor with a current one and instantly went a second a lap quicker (on a ~17s lap layout).

Luckily VTA had similar rules already in place so that class mostly avoided the motor wars. But I personally don't like the class, I don't like the bodies and for about 6 months tyres were near impossible to find.
Yes, I've been around for a few months only. This time. I raced a lot before there were brushless motors, and all of these same conversations happened then (except it was in person, because no Interwebs).

A few notes...

1. If ROAR has changed rules recently to make it much less likely that motors can have huge differences like your 1 sec/lap example, then that sounds like the situation was addressed, ya? What are we even talking about then?

2. Just so I understand. At your local races, you couldn't make the C without the hot motor, which was so hard to buy due to being out of stock that 30 people in your local club alone all had them?

3. How often did these hot motors come out? If it was every other week, I can see a problem. If it meant buying 3 motors over the course of a season, then that is not a problem. If it is a problem, race mod or VTA. Also, if the motors were making hte ROAR list without being widely available, that's a ROAR problem, and is easily addressed without spec motors.

4. The main thing it this: evening the playing field with spec motors doesn't work, plain and simple. It didn't work 20 years ago, it didn't work 10 years ago, and it doesn't work now. The guy who posted about the racer who said that it made him "feel better" was exactly right.

This is the reality of hobbies that involve spending money in order to compete: there will always be stuff that people can buy to go faster/be better etc. and there will always be people who are willing to spend a lot, and people who aren't or can't. RC racing isn't free, it's kinda expensive. That's just how it is. But, there are multiple classes that are cheaper, namely VTA, and mod tc. One is the slowest, and one the fastest (besides 12th).

That means that in the hobby, you have a class at each end of the spectrum that caters to concerns over unfair motor advantage, and classes in the middle which most would agree that ROAR is actively paying attention to, to mitigate unfair motor issues, and doing at least an ok job of it (see my previous example of bone-stock untouched motor guy in the A at Nats).

If none of those things is still satisfactory, I would suggest that the problem isn't motors, it's unreasonable expectations.

And on top of all of that, in the entire history of r/c racing never one time has a single driver ever gone from can't-make-the-A to winning the A exclusively because of spec or handout motors. Never. The reason that spec motors aren't prevalent is that it doesn't work.
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Old 03-23-2018, 07:55 AM
  #246  
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Originally Posted by NutDriver View Post
(putting on my asbestos underwear in preparation for the flame job)
ROAR has instituted very restrictive specs on 25.5, 21.5, 17.5, and other winds. These are the most strict motor rules that the hobby has seen (at least in my 30 years in it), including the brushed motor 24 degree limit, "comm locks", etc. Brush alignment tool? Just scratching the surface. Remember magnet zappers? You could demagnetize your motor magnets, then re-magnetize them with timing advance by rotating the motor in the jig. And many more "tricks" (read: ways to brazenly cheat).
I expect that the long lines at the ROAR Nationals in Tennessee are an enormous commentary at how difficult it is to get an overlord motor (or at least get it through a serious tech inspection). I could go on, but that is my primary point. As the rules continue to get enforced vigorously, I hope that we'll see fewer and fewer motors that are out of compliance.....but it may take a little while.
This.
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Old 03-23-2018, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by jlfx car audio View Post
See thats the issie . manufactures are not able to make a legally faster motor but they can still sell motors that are below mandated specs cause that just means you buy one race it , tell someone hiw fast it is , they buy it ... So on .... You go to big race and your new motor you just bought since you club race your old motor, dont pass tech ... So do you buy another new motor since you have already spent $1k on this event or use your 50 race old motor ? Most of us serious racers will go buy another motor and hope it passes .. But now I'm stress ,rushed , passed , and $150 lighter (per class failed) so a handout Definately saves me time and stress and some money.
This is not the issue that spec motors are meant to address. The problem above (I assume you're referring to the R1 25.5's that failed tech) is a growing pain issue involving R1 doing a bad job properly submitting their motor for approval in light of the rules.

That sucked for sure (I had one of those in fact) but I am confident that this particular issue will be rare, and really isn't that much of a hassle anyway.

On a side note, who spends over $1000 on going to a big event, then gets completely derailed because of one motor issue? Come on...
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Old 03-23-2018, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by DARKSIDE View Post
...but yes I don't mind spending $150 on a motor with a company that's has a good rep on the product. and able to help me be faster.
Wait. You don't mind spending $150 on a motor.....TO RUN VTA??????
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Old 03-23-2018, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by dietDrThunder View Post
On a side note, who spends over $1000 on going to a big event, then gets completely derailed because of one motor issue? Come on...
What was happening was people were spending big money on the latest hot motor for the big race, then getting to the race and finding there was a new hot motor, and they weren't available. All that time, all that money, gone in an instant. That was hurting a lot of people.
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Old 03-23-2018, 08:05 AM
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Here is the bottom line IMO:

The entire goal of spec/handout motors is to negate the advantage of spending a bunch of money, on the premise that people who spend a bunch of money are the consistent winners.

Theory: sound

Practice: the consistent winners are there because they are the sort who are committed to a high level of performance. They are the best drivers, they work the hardest on understanding and executing setup, and they buy all the best stuff. Changing the motor for those guys does nothing to change all that other stuff.

Result: absolutely nothing changes. Serious competitors are willing to buy 4 motors/car/year or whatever, others aren't. Those who aren't buy one good motor that is marginally slower than the motor-o-the-month, and they finish exactly where they would finish if everyone had the same motor.
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Old 03-23-2018, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by jiml View Post
What was happening was people were spending big money on the latest hot motor for the big race, then getting to the race and finding there was a new hot motor, and they weren't available. All that time, all that money, gone in an instant. That was hurting a lot of people.

If a new hot motor appears on the ROAR list but is not widely available, that's a ROAR list problem, not a spec motor problem. IMO the OEM should be able to demonstrate reasonable availability in order for the motor to be on the list.

An easy way to address this is to have event-specific lists that are published well ahead of big events. That way a new hot motor can't appear the week before Nats (for example) that nobody can buy, but a few top placed people mysteriously have them.

Easily addressed without spec motors.
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Old 03-23-2018, 08:28 AM
  #252  
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Originally Posted by DARKSIDE View Post
huh nope no R1 in my stable...but yes I don't mind spending $150 on a motor with a company that's has a good rep on the product. and able to help me be faster.

What I'm asking is, IF the handout motor isn't across the board on a national level, what do we do?... I know motor companies can bid for a title sponsor for an event, like Birds, Champs ect....but after the event then what?....its not like example, Trinity will put up the motors for all the large events?...will they?... and if they did, what about the other companies out there. Reedy, Motiv, TSR, ect...do they get left behind cause nobody is using their motors?....or do we the racers continue to buy handout at every event we attend?...that would really suck to have a bunch of slower than normal handout motors that are useless after an event. Even if you only went to one event, that's still motors that you cant use, unless it happens to be the one your club is using.

Guys this handout motor thing sounds good, but the truth is it will only work if ROAR set very tight rules for handout motors for all companies to follow. Now will they do such a thing after just doing the revise on the rules this past winter?.... I wouldn't. I would like see what happens with the new rules over a period of time.

The other issue with this is if ROAR did the rules for the handout, who is to say the the company will keep it that tight. We saw what happen at the ROAR Nats, with the many motors not able to pass tech. The motor submitted isn't the motor on the shelf?...That's the same issue you will have with the handout.

Then you have the handout itself. We all know that tamper proof is BS. We all know that tricks will be discovered just like "back in the day" with twisting this, shaving that, ect ect....We will find a way to make the motor faster some how, And we know it.

all this to say this again....US the racers need to be BETTER with US.

give me the rules, let me pass tech, let me race....
I think you're missing the distinction between a user owned control motor and a track owned handout motor. Also, if it's a single make spec motor then it doesn't even need to be ROAR approved if everyone is using the same motor.

Last edited by gigaplex; 03-23-2018 at 08:48 AM.
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Old 03-23-2018, 08:41 AM
  #253  
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Originally Posted by dietDrThunder View Post
Yes, I've been around for a few months only. This time. I raced a lot before there were brushless motors, and all of these same conversations happened then (except it was in person, because no Interwebs).

A few notes...

1. If ROAR has changed rules recently to make it much less likely that motors can have huge differences like your 1 sec/lap example, then that sounds like the situation was addressed, ya? What are we even talking about then?
Good question. It hasn't been around long so it's too early to say if the wars are truly over.

Originally Posted by dietDrThunder View Post
2. Just so I understand. At your local races, you couldn't make the C without the hot motor, which was so hard to buy due to being out of stock that 30 people in your local club alone all had them?
At my local races? No, this was more of a big event situation. And the specific example I'm thinking of, the motor had a long backlog and only shipped direct to customers. I'm outside USA so direct orders were prohibitively expensive, and hobby shops couldn't order them due to the backlog. Nobody here ran that specific motor as a result.

Originally Posted by dietDrThunder View Post
3. How often did these hot motors come out? If it was every other week, I can see a problem. If it meant buying 3 motors over the course of a season, then that is not a problem. If it is a problem, race mod or VTA. Also, if the motors were making hte ROAR list without being widely available, that's a ROAR problem, and is easily addressed without spec motors.
It varied but on average perhaps every month or two. I disagree with your assertion that 3 motors per season is acceptable, that's outside the budget of a lot of people.

Originally Posted by dietDrThunder View Post
4. The main thing it this: evening the playing field with spec motors doesn't work, plain and simple. It didn't work 20 years ago, it didn't work 10 years ago, and it doesn't work now. The guy who posted about the racer who said that it made him "feel better" was exactly right.
It's not that simple. It worked pretty darn well for the mini class we run in Australia.

Originally Posted by dietDrThunder View Post
This is the reality of hobbies that involve spending money in order to compete: there will always be stuff that people can buy to go faster/be better etc. and there will always be people who are willing to spend a lot, and people who aren't or can't. RC racing isn't free, it's kinda expensive. That's just how it is. But, there are multiple classes that are cheaper, namely VTA, and mod tc. One is the slowest, and one the fastest (besides 12th).

That means that in the hobby, you have a class at each end of the spectrum that caters to concerns over unfair motor advantage, and classes in the middle which most would agree that ROAR is actively paying attention to, to mitigate unfair motor issues, and doing at least an ok job of it (see my previous example of bone-stock untouched motor guy in the A at Nats).

If none of those things is still satisfactory, I would suggest that the problem isn't motors, it's unreasonable expectations.

And on top of all of that, in the entire history of r/c racing never one time has a single driver ever gone from can't-make-the-A to winning the A exclusively because of spec or handout motors. Never. The reason that spec motors aren't prevalent is that it doesn't work.
Nobody is making that claim. You need more than a good motor to win. But it's damn near impossible to win in a competitive field if your motor isn't up to snuff.
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Old 03-23-2018, 08:42 AM
  #254  
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Originally Posted by dietDrThunder View Post
If a new hot motor appears on the ROAR list but is not widely available, that's a ROAR list problem, not a spec motor problem. IMO the OEM should be able to demonstrate reasonable availability in order for the motor to be on the list.

An easy way to address this is to have event-specific lists that are published well ahead of big events. That way a new hot motor can't appear the week before Nats (for example) that nobody can buy, but a few top placed people mysteriously have them.

Easily addressed without spec motors.
So what will you do with your $150 R1 motor now ?
As for vta and usgt they have there own set of rules and what not .. I'm mostly referring to the Tc&1/12th classes . vta has had a pretty good standing with the 25.5 for the most part till the R-1 and I'm sure some others will follow start to sell motors faster than aloud . the Novak 25.5 race rule seemed to be the greatest thing to many . now that its opened up to all manufactures the class has slid off the charts at all major events where there was 2-3 heats when it was Novak only . vta is coming back in our area due to new blood and Myron which is awesome but again R1 has taken everyone for a ride unless they submit a new motor for inspection . and the trinity issue with them using larger wire ,canton is trying to push theirs thru with it as well ... No its not legal but noone said they cant sell it . so we the racers buy it not knowing these things cause it looks to be fast on race day just to find out its illigial at the big races
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Old 03-23-2018, 08:45 AM
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For Gigaplex:

All reasonable replies for sure.

For the 3 motors/season thing, then race mod or vta? It's racing...every class isn't going to be an everyman class.

In any case, reasonable debate is always good!
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