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Handout motors

Old 03-22-2018, 01:33 PM
  #226  
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Originally Posted by dietDrThunder View Post
As a person who is recently returned to the hobby, I don't see what all the gnashing of teeth is over motors. In every class at my club you can buy a motor off the shelf that with a basic amount of tuning is _very_ close to what the really fast guys run, and the fastest guys still win every week.

I guarantee 100% that if I gave our fastest GT guy my car, he's still be our fastest GT guy. If I built a 17.5 TC car, with setup help from here and nice guys at the track, I could build a car without excessive motor shenanigans that the fastest 3 17.5 TC guys would still be on the podium with.

Hell, I pit right next to a guy who is at the track about once every other week, and at the last minute he decided to race GT in the ROAR NATs last week (that was at our home track). He didn't even have a GT car set up. He grabbed his 2nd TC chassis, went through it, and borrowed my off-the-shelf, never touched TSR 21.5 motor, and oh, pardon me, put it in the A Main. We both had to ask for help when it came to tech because neither of us had ever disassembled a brushless motor before.

Is this really that much of an issue?
On paper the order of the results may look the same but the racing is usually much closer with a spec “hand out”. By definition the racing will be closer with identical motors. That’s all that most people want, to know they don’t need the TSR or whatever the fast motor is that week to not be at ANY disadvantage. Then they can trust it’s just their driving and or setup that needs improvement, rather than a bigger pocket book.
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Old 03-22-2018, 01:51 PM
  #227  
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Originally Posted by Magnet Top View Post
On paper the order of the results may look the same but the racing is usually much closer with a spec “hand out”. By definition the racing will be closer with identical motors. That’s all that most people want, to know they don’t need the TSR or whatever the fast motor is that week to not be at ANY disadvantage. Then they can trust it’s just their driving and or setup that needs improvement, rather than a bigger pocket book.
So if the point of a handout motor is that Spending $100 on a readily available motor that will last roughly forever is too much to ask, I would suggest racing in VTA (which I in fact do, and greatly enjoy) as a meaningful alternative. I bought a high quality motor for my VTA car when I returned the first week of January, and I haven't so much as cleaned it yet after running every single Sunday, and several hours of practice every Wed. and some Saturdays.

Back in the day, the reason for handout motors was that there was no way on Earth that an off-the-shelf motor could be even a little competitive v. people cutting brushes and comms etc. to where they had 8-10 motor setups fo reach car they were running at a big event. In that case, it made sense because we were trashing comms in 2 or 3 heats because they were cut so thin...same deal with batteries...pushed so hard they were junk in 2 heats at most, and you had to bring $800-$1200 worth of brand new batteries with you to a big race if you wanted to really compete.

But...handout motors meant that people skulked back to their pits to work all sorts of super-secret hand-out motor massaging, and what do you know? All the fast guys somehow had cars that would pull more gear, or obviously turn higher rpm, etc. The result (and I'm sure that someone here will remember this and corroborate) was that it really accomplished nothing.

I bring up the past because all of that stuff made it impossible for anyone but the most highly committed racers to be at all competitive. If you couldn't afford to pay someone to build a pile of motors for you, or you didn't have the time and wherewithal to stay up all night for a week sitting at a motor lathe, you already lost the races. It isn't like that now. Yes, there is still an advantage to be had via hard work, attention to detail, and commitment, but the gap is hugely smaller. My pit mate who made the A with the totally stock motor would not have made the C main in 1998 with such a low-spec approach regardless of his driving skill (which is considerable obviously...motor doesn't get you to the A at Nats).

ANYway...I get what you're saying for sure that it _should_ mean closer racing. I know my newly-returned experience is short-lived, but at my club (which has fast, sponsored guys and more than 1 national champion as regulars) , plus my recent experience at the ROARs, I have yet to see a race that was lopsided or noncompetitive because some people had better motors.

If my experience is not the broader reality, then I give way to others who have been around more than a couple months
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Old 03-22-2018, 01:54 PM
  #228  
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Originally Posted by DARKSIDE View Post
so if a club goes with a said handout motor...say Reedy lock 17.5 for a class... what happens when they travel to an event or club that uses a different lock time motor like the Trinity or HW or still running ROAR 17.5's.

What will the racer do?...buy that motor for that race, then keep it as a trophy when he returns home?....cause it will not be legal with the Reedy's.

Or what if your home track does the lock time motor thing....and all the events you are preparing for dont use this method. And if they are in the same boat as me, my club racing is my practice days. So Im running a much slower motor to prepare for a much faster motor at the traveled event.
Out of the roughly 35 people that race at our track, I only know of 5 that travel to out-of-town races, so you have to ask yourself... How many people is this really impacting?

If you travel out of town to race I guess you have the following options:
1. Use your locked timing motor if the rule is open ROAR-approved motor. The Reedy's at least are ROAR-approved.
2. Use a ROAR-approved motor you already own for an event that specs open ROAR motor rules.
3. Buy your favorite ROAR-approved motor for an open-motor event.
4. Buy the correct spec motor for the event you are racing at. It sounds like the big events are issuing motors onsite like they do with tires anyways, so does it matter if you use a $150 open ROAR motor on your home track or a $50 locked timing motor?

Chances are if you are traveling out of town to race you are pretty serious and the cost of another motor shouldn't be your determining factor in making or not making a race. Last time I went to an out-of-town race the fuel, hotel and race entry fees cost more than a new premium spec motor.
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Old 03-22-2018, 01:55 PM
  #229  
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Originally Posted by dietDrThunder View Post
But...handout motors meant that people skulked back to their pits to work all sorts of super-secret hand-out motor massaging, and what do you know? All the fast guys somehow had cars that would pull more gear, or obviously turn higher rpm, etc. The result (and I'm sure that someone here will remember this and corroborate) was that it really accomplished nothing.

HEY! Just because I put my "brush hood alignment tool" in that motor and cranked that thing over in my vice so it had like 30 degrees of timing instead of 24 doesn't make me evil!

Also, the water dip, running the motor backwards for an hour to seat a set of funny brushes, the dry lube, polishing the thing like its a religion, that was all secondary. My PERSONAL favorite cheat that I ever heard of was a bronze bushing that had been machined to accept a small diameter ball bearing, so you could check the bottom of those stock motors at its clearly a bronze bushing... right? Nope!

Yeah, 27 turn stock was a lot of fun. The best part was how right around the time you figured out how that motor really wanted to run it tended to start to wear out.
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Old 03-22-2018, 02:05 PM
  #230  
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Originally Posted by jlfx car audio View Post
And that's why one motor is key . if motors are checked like Paul does his the problem will disappear . a company makes a motor with a certain strenth rotor that is checked
A stator with a close ir between them and a adjustable sensor board they get assembled and set identical within 2° of timing (so they all have simular rpm) and use them for the event ... Just like stock wars. Boom after the race is over you can adjust the timing and run it at club level if that wind motor used is aloud
Originally Posted by Marcos.J View Post
eliminate any sponsor racer from any spec class ,
Originally Posted by dietDrThunder View Post
So if the point of a handout motor is that Spending $100 on a readily available motor that will last roughly forever is too much to ask, I would suggest racing in VTA (which I in fact do, and greatly enjoy) as a meaningful alternative. I bought a high quality motor for my VTA car when I returned the first week of January, and I haven't so much as cleaned it yet after running every single Sunday, and several hours of practice every Wed. and some Saturdays.

Back in the day, the reason for handout motors was that there was no way on Earth that an off-the-shelf motor could be even a little competitive v. people cutting brushes and comms etc. to where they had 8-10 motor setups fo reach car they were running at a big event. In that case, it made sense because we were trashing comms in 2 or 3 heats because they were cut so thin...same deal with batteries...pushed so hard they were junk in 2 heats at most, and you had to bring $800-$1200 worth of brand new batteries with you to a big race if you wanted to really compete.

But...handout motors meant that people skulked back to their pits to work all sorts of super-secret hand-out motor massaging, and what do you know? All the fast guys somehow had cars that would pull more gear, or obviously turn higher rpm, etc. The result (and I'm sure that someone here will remember this and corroborate) was that it really accomplished nothing.

I bring up the past because all of that stuff made it impossible for anyone but the most highly committed racers to be at all competitive. If you couldn't afford to pay someone to build a pile of motors for you, or you didn't have the time and wherewithal to stay up all night for a week sitting at a motor lathe, you already lost the races. It isn't like that now. Yes, there is still an advantage to be had via hard work, attention to detail, and commitment, but the gap is hugely smaller. My pit mate who made the A with the totally stock motor would not have made the C main in 1998 with such a low-spec approach regardless of his driving skill (which is considerable obviously...motor doesn't get you to the A at Nats).

ANYway...I get what you're saying for sure that it _should_ mean closer racing. I know my newly-returned experience is short-lived, but at my club (which has fast, sponsored guys and more than 1 national champion as regulars) , plus my recent experience at the ROARs, I have yet to see a race that was lopsided or noncompetitive because some people had better motors.

If my experience is not the broader reality, then I give way to others who have been around more than a couple months
well said...I rather buy 1 $150 motor thats top notch, than 4 whatevers at $50 each to get a good one.

But time will tell...and has stated earlier, Mod and VTA sound better everyday
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Old 03-22-2018, 02:16 PM
  #231  
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Originally Posted by DARKSIDE View Post
so if a club goes with a said handout motor...say Reedy lock 17.5 for a class... what happens when they travel to an event or club that uses a different lock time motor like the Trinity or HW or still running ROAR 17.5's.

What will the racer do?...buy that motor for that race, then keep it as a trophy when he returns home?....cause it will not be legal with the Reedy's.

Or what if your home track does the lock time motor thing....and all the events you are preparing for dont use this method. And if they are in the same boat as me, my club racing is my practice days. So Im running a much slower motor to prepare for a much faster motor at the traveled event.
If it's a track owned handout, they just put it in, use it, then hand it back.

If it's user owned control then yes, it becomes a trophy. I think the user owned model makes sense if it's a national rule rather than a per track rule.

Originally Posted by DARKSIDE View Post
well said...I rather buy 1 $150 motor thats top notch, than 4 whatevers at $50 each to get a good one.

But time will tell...and has stated earlier, Mod and VTA sound better everyday
If someone is the type to buy 4 $50 spec motors to find the best, they're already buying 4 $150 motors to find the best there too (whether it's multiple of the same model, or of different brands).

Last edited by gigaplex; 03-22-2018 at 02:33 PM.
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Old 03-22-2018, 02:25 PM
  #232  
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Originally Posted by dietDrThunder View Post
So if the point of a handout motor is that Spending $100 on a readily available motor that will last roughly forever is too much to ask, I would suggest racing in VTA (which I in fact do, and greatly enjoy) as a meaningful alternative. I bought a high quality motor for my VTA car when I returned the first week of January, and I haven't so much as cleaned it yet after running every single Sunday, and several hours of practice every Wed. and some Saturdays.
So you've been back for a couple of months? You haven't seen the motor wars then. Over the past couple of years there were a lot of new motors that had a significant performance advantage over the previous generation. It got to the point where you basically wouldn't make the C main unless you either had the current hot motor, or were a superstar driver. What made it worse was that some of those motors were almost always out of stock. ROAR rules have changed recently which has slowed down that arms race but the bitterness over what happened still remains with many people. My personal experience is that I replaced my motor with a current one and instantly went a second a lap quicker (on a ~17s lap layout).

Luckily VTA had similar rules already in place so that class mostly avoided the motor wars. But I personally don't like the class, I don't like the bodies and for about 6 months tyres were near impossible to find.

Last edited by gigaplex; 03-22-2018 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 03-22-2018, 03:30 PM
  #233  
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Originally Posted by DARKSIDE View Post
well said...I rather buy 1 $150 motor thats top notch, than 4 whatevers at $50 each to get a good one.
Our rules - you get to buy one. It's marked and made tamper-proof. If it's defective or you destroy it, there will be an opportunity to replace it. You don't get to just go buy a pile of the same spec motor and cherry pick the best performer.
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Old 03-22-2018, 04:14 PM
  #234  
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(putting on my asbestos underwear in preparation for the flame job)
ROAR has instituted very restrictive specs on 25.5, 21.5, 17.5, and other winds. These are the most strict motor rules that the hobby has seen (at least in my 30 years in it), including the brushed motor 24 degree limit, "comm locks", etc. Brush alignment tool? Just scratching the surface. Remember magnet zappers? You could demagnetize your motor magnets, then re-magnetize them with timing advance by rotating the motor in the jig. And many more "tricks" (read: ways to brazenly cheat).
I expect that the long lines at the ROAR Nationals in Tennessee are an enormous commentary at how difficult it is to get an overlord motor (or at least get it through a serious tech inspection). I could go on, but that is my primary point. As the rules continue to get enforced vigorously, I hope that we'll see fewer and fewer motors that are out of compliance.....but it may take a little while.
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Old 03-22-2018, 04:16 PM
  #235  
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Or sealed handouts with no tech line at all
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Old 03-22-2018, 05:41 PM
  #236  
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Originally Posted by Racermac73 View Post
Or sealed handouts with no tech line at all
This is a big point
Plus everyone at an equal speed forcing driver and setup to step it up!
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Old 03-22-2018, 06:46 PM
  #237  
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Originally Posted by dietDrThunder View Post
As a person who is recently returned to the hobby, I don't see what all the gnashing of teeth is over motors. In every class at my club you can buy a motor off the shelf that with a basic amount of tuning is _very_ close to what the really fast guys run, and the fastest guys still win every week.

I guarantee 100% that if I gave our fastest GT guy my car, he's still be our fastest GT guy. If I built a 17.5 TC car, with setup help from here and nice guys at the track, I could build a car without excessive motor shenanigans that the fastest 3 17.5 TC guys would still be on the podium with.

Hell, I pit right next to a guy who is at the track about once every other week, and at the last minute he decided to race GT in the ROAR NATs last week (that was at our home track). He didn't even have a GT car set up. He grabbed his 2nd TC chassis, went through it, and borrowed my off-the-shelf, never touched TSR 21.5 motor, and oh, pardon me, put it in the A Main. We both had to ask for help when it came to tech because neither of us had ever disassembled a brushless motor before.

Is this really that much of an issue?
Is your GT car a AMX car ? If not then I would not be the fastest gt driver . lol jackie would be faster .
But back to the topic at hand . a off the shelf TSR is $150 and if its one of my TSR motors its no off the shelf motor ... Jackie and me were the only 2 I'm aware of that had tsr motors in a 21.5 that made a A main but thats just the tip of it . the issue is if my other $150 motor would have passed I would have finished better in my race as I'm sure jackie would have as well . but this is the issue . manufactures are putting illegal motors on the shelves of the hobby shop and we are buying them falling inlove with the hp they have then finding out they dont pass tech ... Making us want to go buy another (same brand) motor and get it passed so we dont have to use our old work horse motor . but thats more money that I didnt spend . a handout would eliminate that issue . rent/buy a cheap/fast motor to use at a given club and when you go to next place you rent/buy there motor to use there ... In the end its still way cheaper than buyijg and testing motors as they come out looking for that edge or play catchup after someone figures out the new hot motor for you ... Still isnt cheap . yes someone has to front the money to get the motors but as ive said in earlier posts this will potentially save me $800 a reason ... No reason I can't help our club buy into the handout game . if its a rental setup ill get it back after they rent out anyways ...
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Old 03-22-2018, 06:59 PM
  #238  
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Originally Posted by DARKSIDE View Post
well said...I rather buy 1 $150 motor thats top notch, than 4 whatevers at $50 each to get a good one.

But time will tell...and has stated earlier, Mod and VTA sound better everyday
Didnt you just buy a R1? For those local guys that also have R1 motors how will they like to hear that they are illegal based on Roar tech measurents (all recent batches ) dont pass tech ... So for the new guy or the back from the cript racer lol to keep up needs to buy him a $150 illegal R1 as well or do the guys that have them need to just go back to there last motor ? (Ultimately Steve needs to get them approved Correctly) and Myron lol you wouldnt buy 4 $50 handout motors ... Or atleast not notice it cause then you wouldnt be bringing up 3 reedy motors during a race day once a month . lol how much were those ? Wouldnt it be nice to be running same lap times as the rest of the guys ? I know your blue cars are capable of it. Instead of you coming off the driver stand and going strait for my temp gun to see if its buring attempting to catch me and jackie you could just focus on setup to try to catch us ... Lol
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Old 03-22-2018, 07:09 PM
  #239  
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Originally Posted by NutDriver View Post
(putting on my asbestos underwear in preparation for the flame job)
ROAR has instituted very restrictive specs on 25.5, 21.5, 17.5, and other winds. These are the most strict motor rules that the hobby has seen (at least in my 30 years in it), including the brushed motor 24 degree limit, "comm locks", etc. Brush alignment tool? Just scratching the surface. Remember magnet zappers? You could demagnetize your motor magnets, then re-magnetize them with timing advance by rotating the motor in the jig. And many more "tricks" (read: ways to brazenly cheat).
I expect that the long lines at the ROAR Nationals in Tennessee are an enormous commentary at how difficult it is to get an overlord motor (or at least get it through a serious tech inspection). I could go on, but that is my primary point. As the rules continue to get enforced vigorously, I hope that we'll see fewer and fewer motors that are out of compliance.....but it may take a little while.
See thats the issie . manufactures are not able to make a legally faster motor but they can still sell motors that are below mandated specs cause that just means you buy one race it , tell someone hiw fast it is , they buy it ... So on .... You go to big race and your new motor you just bought since you club race your old motor, dont pass tech ... So do you buy another new motor since you have already spent $1k on this event or use your 50 race old motor ? Most of us serious racers will go buy another motor and hope it passes .. But now I'm stress ,rushed , passed , and $150 lighter (per class failed) so a handout Definately saves me time and stress and some money.
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Old 03-23-2018, 12:18 AM
  #240  
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Originally Posted by DARKSIDE View Post
well said...I rather buy 1 $150 motor thats top notch, than 4 whatevers at $50 each to get a good one.
And thats why a handout. You will get just one $50 motor with a locked endbell/timing and no way to test some motors. If the organisation is doing it right then all motors are checked.
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