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Handout motors

Old 03-21-2018, 12:14 PM
  #196  
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Reducing the PERCEIVED difference in motors is what matters most. It keeps costs down significantly ( reducing the barrier to entry ) and gets people to acknowledge its more about driving than the motor.

Re-sorts are only good if your class has enough participants. Our own home grown entry level "SCALE SPEC" class went from having an A and B main to three racers at our most recent race. This was after we were forced to abandon the 25.5 Novak motor ( because they went out of business ) as a spec motor last year. So we switched to the "open" 25.5 motors using ROAR rules. The result is the class has dwindled to THREE entries at our last race. Whether there is a real difference in the motors doesn't really matter, its the perceived difference / rationalization that HP is different, even if not huge, it is an excuse.

We don't have the luxury of a permanent track, our program is temporary and lacks significant practice time. This mostly hurts the new guys. The only solution is if turnout is big enough some entrepreneur sees a viable business to create a permanent shop in the area. That won't happen if we have only three guys running our first class above Novice ( Scale Spec ). No business"man" will take a chance on a business with no foundation of existing racers and no positive outlook on growth. Entries were great before we were forced to use "open" 25.5 motors due to Novaks 25.5 no longer being an option. Coincidence ? I doubt it.

So, I still think that keeping costs down by mandating a spec "hand out" motor from one manufacturer is our best option to grow our hobby. It would be nice to educate every racer that comes in the door... or send them a link ti this thread, or better yet, pay for billboards off the freeway and pay for FaceBook ads that preach the "its your driving , not a lack of HP, Stupid" but its far easier just to restrain the motor choices and let people come to that conclusion, that its more about their driving, without a word being said. IMHO.

Jake

Last edited by Magnet Top; 03-21-2018 at 12:27 PM.
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Old 03-21-2018, 01:37 PM
  #197  
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It seems simple to me They have a spec on rotors and wire. spec the stator size, length and shape of the inner diameter. Spec the fasteners in the motor to eliminate the cost of aluminum screws that change the power of the motor. A locked sensor and the problem is fixed.

Three classes, Pro, Sportsman (17.5, open timing ESC, no sponsorships), Novice (17.5, Blinky, no sponsorships)
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Old 03-21-2018, 01:48 PM
  #198  
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Originally Posted by theproffesor View Post
... I haven’t seen any truly stand out motor in any of the spec classes.

Originally Posted by theproffesor View Post
I bought a $150 “super tuned” motor for the southern nats last year and it was a friggin dog.


Originally Posted by theproffesor View Post
Dropped in a $100 off the shelf (just asked someone with a motorlyzer to help set accurate timing) for the mains and instantly was going almost a second faster per lap.
A second per lap seems like a notable, some may even say standout, difference.
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Old 03-21-2018, 02:05 PM
  #199  
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Originally Posted by mooby64 View Post
...and the fast guys will still be "The Fast Guys". It ain't the car, motor, body, tires or batteries, it's the nut behind the wheel.
I almost fully agree with you but you will be amazed how far some toplevel drivers can fall back if they can not use their illegal speed secrets. I have seen it happen....
When we in the 1/8 gas onroad had decided to sauce the tires we saw a much closer gap between the top and the sub-top drivers with even keeping topdrivers from podium. Also on the ETS there wer 3 toplevel stock drivers send home due an illegal FDR, OK, clearly against the rules but hey, they were the toplevel drivers.

Yes, in normal real stock situation the fast guys will still be faster, but finishing behind them on an half lap distance or 2 laps distance makes a huge difference in the fun and motivation of the other drivers.

It is not about what you and any other driver want, if you want healthy races for the future you have to start with making the differences and the needed budget smaller or else new drivers will go back to their playstation and never come back again..
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Old 03-21-2018, 02:32 PM
  #200  
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Everyone keeps falling back to newbies. Handout motors are not about newbies. It's about intermediate drivers doing the best they can with what they have, and not being out spent 2 to 1 by some guy who has a secret motor guy. There was a real difference between some motors, and some real die hard racers were thinking of getting out. Handout motors are keeping people in the hobby, and even bringing some back.

If there was going to be a battery war, we'd be having it already.
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Old 03-21-2018, 03:56 PM
  #201  
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I've run a couple of races with handout motors, (21.5 TC being the one I remember well), and it was nice knowing that based on the random draw everyone was close to each other with motors. You still had to figure out what your individual motor liked, but it kept you in the hunt at least. I know I ended up with a paperweight at the end of the race, but half the times once a new design gets approved by Roar, you end up in the same situation with any motors that you have bought for races as well. Find a spec motor that works for your individual track and that way shops can use what's going to work best and keep people coming back to race more. I've seen some clubs in my area dwindle in classes because of issues like that.
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Old 03-21-2018, 04:00 PM
  #202  
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Easy spec/stock class you pay a $150 race entry and you get this and this is what everyone races straight out of the box
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Old 03-21-2018, 04:38 PM
  #203  
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Originally Posted by Marcos.J View Post
Easy spec/stock class you pay a $150 race entry and you get this and this is what everyone races straight out of the box
That seems to be a pretty common reaction from mod drivers when stock drivers talk spec.
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Old 03-21-2018, 04:45 PM
  #204  
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Originally Posted by Marcos.J View Post
Easy spec/stock class you pay a $150 race entry and you get this and this is what everyone races straight out of the box
You can make fun of it but in the past as a winter activity our club had held a competition with the Nikko Evolution 1:14 cars for several years. Only the optional parts (2 type of tires and 3 type of motors) were alowed. Never had that much fun to drive
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Old 03-21-2018, 05:09 PM
  #205  
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The argument that spec motors are to keep newbies or the average racer on a even playing field is nonsense.. The idea that after paying your dues and getting good you've earned the right to spend 200 on a motor is even dumber. Spec motors are for the greater good in spec classes, 360v2 is having club races with more spec 12th scale guys than the roar nats just had in 17.5.
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Old 03-21-2018, 05:59 PM
  #206  
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Originally Posted by imprsme View Post
So basically this whole thing is about people’s “feelings”?

They want to “feel” like they got beat by talent or knowledge and not “feel” like they got beat by deeper pockets..... but the out come is the same.


I had this very conversation at a track last weekend with some one. After the track ran a “spec” motor class the week before.

I ask the guy I was speaking with what changed other than the motors everyone was running.

The same fast guys still won. They were 2-3 laps up on the same guys. And lap times from the top to the bottom guys were still half a second a lap different.

His reply was “ I feel better knowing everyone has the same motor”.

It didn’t matter that the out come was the same. It was all about how he “felt” about it.

Lol
In this theory about “feelings”, I feel better getting beat by better drivers and not having to spend $150+ on a motor that may be in the top 10%(probably not) or the bottom 10%.

The point about resorts is hard to justify if you’ve got 5 sedan classes and 30 racers.
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Old 03-21-2018, 06:17 PM
  #207  
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Originally Posted by GrandeGixxer View Post
In this theory about “feelings”, I feel better getting beat by better drivers and not having to spend $150+ on a motor that may be in the top 10%(probably not) or the bottom 10%.

The point about resorts is hard to justify if you’ve got 5 sedan classes and 30 racers.
I agree. Even if it’s the same outcome, if it costs less for everyone , it’ll retain more people. Just simple economics.
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Old 03-21-2018, 06:36 PM
  #208  
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Originally Posted by Magnet Top View Post
I agree. Even if it’s the same outcome, if it costs less for everyone , it’ll retain more people. Just simple economics.
I call bull on this argument. The track has to lay out money for x number of spec motors thus they have to increase race fees to cover these additional costs. So now instead of a $25 or $30 race fee it's $40 or $50. It only takes ten or so races and you've shelled out what a fully topped out motor would cost.

Sure for that guy who buys every new motor because a plastic trophy is that important to his feeling of self worth then yes he may be saving money. But the guy who races once or less per month is shouldering the cost so that guy can feel good, cannot say I'm a fan of this approach. Plus after awhile he'll figure out that he still cannot win and then find something else to blame the losing on and quit anyway.

Last edited by chris moore; 03-21-2018 at 07:14 PM.
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Old 03-21-2018, 08:48 PM
  #209  
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Originally Posted by chris moore View Post
I call bull on this argument. The track has to lay out money for x number of spec motors thus they have to increase race fees to cover these additional costs. So now instead of a $25 or $30 race fee it's $40 or $50. It only takes ten or so races and you've shelled out what a fully topped out motor would cost.

Sure for that guy who buys every new motor because a plastic trophy is that important to his feeling of self worth then yes he may be saving money. But the guy who races once or less per month is shouldering the cost so that guy can feel good, cannot say I'm a fan of this approach. Plus after awhile he'll figure out that he still cannot win and then find something else to blame the losing on and quit anyway.
If the track is keeping the fees that much higher even after the motors have been paid off, then they're the ones causing higher costs, not the motors themselves.
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Old 03-22-2018, 12:56 AM
  #210  
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Originally Posted by chris moore View Post
I call bull on this argument. The track has to lay out money for x number of spec motors thus they have to increase race fees to cover these additional costs. So now instead of a $25 or $30 race fee it's $40 or $50. It only takes ten or so races and you've shelled out what a fully topped out motor would cost.

Sure for that guy who buys every new motor because a plastic trophy is that important to his feeling of self worth then yes he may be saving money. But the guy who races once or less per month is shouldering the cost so that guy can feel good, cannot say I'm a fan of this approach. Plus after awhile he'll figure out that he still cannot win and then find something else to blame the losing on and quit anyway.
I am not saying this should be for every class, only the class just above novice. If a club or business wants to build a growing base of racers it has to be inexpensive. Lots of very successful businesses thrive on LOSS leaders to bring people into the store for further sales. . So if a business is smart they play the long game, not the short sighted cash grab we see repeatedly by manufacturers and store owners that then wonder why the hobby is dying after sucking the last bit of blood from the few racers that are left.
Basically, there needs to be a low cost entry level class that brings smiles not empty pockets, imho. Those smiles bring other racers in. Just like amazon has reviews on good products, they matter. Nobody is going to suggest something to a friend if they are spending lots of money and it’s not fun. That’s a hard sell........
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