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Handout motors

Old 03-21-2018, 08:43 AM
  #181  
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Originally Posted by scirocco14 View Post
OK. Then what's next? A handout chassis? I'm tired of racing against Awesomatix and Serpents with my 5 yr old Xray T4 '13. That's not fair. . If we truly want to make it fair, and only depend on driver ability, then that's the only way to go.

Mark C.
So in other words you just want to keep spending a fortune on the motor of the week? I myself would rather spend my race funds on other things, such as spare parts if needed, or when I need a new set of tires, etc. At least that's less expensive than spending over $100 for a motor that will be good for nothing but a paperweight in a month because another motor has been released...
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Old 03-21-2018, 08:45 AM
  #182  
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Originally Posted by scirocco14 View Post
Of course people like it, other people are shouldering the costs. Handout motors is like socialism: works great until you run out of other people's money.

To me, the whole handout motor thing is a false equivalency. The people clamoring for it think it solves the 'deeper pocket' problem because other people have deeper pockets. In the end, after jumping through all these hoops to get 'equality', does the finishing order really change that much?

Mark C
Well, that first line is way too close to being political, but I don't think it crosses the line. Have mercy, Marcos!

Now how do you mean it's a false equivalency? Since the day electric R/C started we've tried to have an equal motor class for people trying to develop their skills, and them move up to the more competitive class. We racers ruined that with all the little tricks we've done with motors, and then justifying with "hey it's legal, isn't it?"

It's not a question of changing the finishing order. It's a question of leveling the playing field. If an intermediate racer can go to a track and know he's not going to get out motored in a "spec motor" class, it's more likely that racer will come back and try to improve his skill, not give up because he'll never get the same motor the top guys have.

Originally Posted by scirocco14 View Post
OK. Then what's next? A handout chassis? I'm tired of racing against Awesomatix and Serpents with my 5 yr old Xray T4 '13. That's not fair. . If we truly want to make it fair, and only depend on driver ability, then that's the only way to go.

Mark C.
Aw, c'mon, dude! That's obviously not what we're talking about here. The motor issue has been around forever, and it looks like there may finally be an answer. Instead of fighting it just to fight it, why not try it and see what happens.
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Old 03-21-2018, 09:18 AM
  #183  
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Originally Posted by scirocco14 View Post
OK. Then what's next? A handout chassis? I'm tired of racing against Awesomatix and Serpents with my 5 yr old Xray T4 '13. That's not fair. . If we truly want to make it fair, and only depend on driver ability, then that's the only way to go.

Mark C.
Let me guess.... You are against an hand out motor?

I am thinking that because these kind of arguements always pop up from people against an hand out. Also other arguments like less speed do come from the same group of drivers that have an advantage with their speed secrets. To me that was the reason I quited electric touring many years ago because these kind of people can not leave the motor nor the ESC real stock and are even proud of winning a race with illegal speed secrets. Such people are not aware of how demotivating that is to the "normal" racer and do damage the racing series.

But if you have no money to get a new chassis then probably you also have no money to create a 400 dollar fast competive motor or have you?
And beside that, an old chassis doesn't have to be bad, it for sure will make a less difference in laptimes than a out of the box standard 17.5T compared a full modified/upgraded motor.
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Old 03-21-2018, 09:45 AM
  #184  
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There are too many factors in RC racing to try to equalize all racers , It impossible.
A handout / Spec motor can help a little.
The more factors that are the same in a class the more even racing will be. That would be the only way to do it, Same exact Chassis, battery, motor , gearing, tires body ESC, servo FDR, Timing .
That will Never happen !
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Old 03-21-2018, 09:47 AM
  #185  
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i think this thread deserves this award

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Old 03-21-2018, 10:11 AM
  #186  
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Originally Posted by scirocco14 View Post
OK. Then what's next? A handout chassis? I'm tired of racing against Awesomatix and Serpents with my 5 yr old Xray T4 '13. That's not fair. . If we truly want to make it fair, and only depend on driver ability, then that's the only way to go.

Mark C.
...and the fast guys will still be "The Fast Guys". It ain't the car, motor, body, tires or batteries, it's the nut behind the wheel.
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Old 03-21-2018, 10:29 AM
  #187  
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Originally Posted by mooby64 View Post
...and the fast guys will still be "The Fast Guys". It ain't the car, motor, body, tires or batteries, it's the nut behind the wheel.
Thank you. That's my point. I'm not against a handout motor, per se. But it only makes sense if everything else is spec'd. E.g. Motor, ESC, chassis, tires, body, etc.

I see guys worrying/complaining about the 'other guy's motor', getting pulled slightly on the straight and then proceeding to bounce off of half the track until they get back to the straight again. There's a bunch more horsepower to be found in the corners than they'll ever find on the straight.

I've been around racing for all my life (55 yrs) and I've seen attempts to make things 'fair' in all sorts of motorsports. It rarely, if ever works, because racing is a meritocracy, not a democracy. Some people are simply better at racing. No amount of rules mongering will change that.

Mark C.
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Old 03-21-2018, 10:49 AM
  #188  
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Originally Posted by scirocco14 View Post
Thank you. That's my point. I'm not against a handout motor, per se. But it only makes sense if everything else is spec'd. E.g. Motor, ESC, chassis, tires, body, etc.

I see guys worrying/complaining about the 'other guy's motor', getting pulled slightly on the straight and then proceeding to bounce off of half the track until they get back to the straight again. There's a bunch more horsepower to be found in the corners than they'll ever find on the straight.

I've been around racing for all my life (55 yrs) and I've seen attempts to make things 'fair' in all sorts of motorsports. It rarely, if ever works, because racing is a meritocracy, not a democracy. Some people are simply better at racing. No amount of rules mongering will change that.

Mark C.
Mark, I don't think this thread was started to make things "fair", but to see if there is a way to keep from having to buy the motor of the month. I myself would rather be beat on the track by someone who is a better driver and who can have a better setup than myself then to just be outspent.
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Old 03-21-2018, 10:58 AM
  #189  
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Originally Posted by MUDVAYNE View Post
Mark, I don't think this thread was started to make things "fair", but to see if there is a way to keep from having to buy the motor of the month. I myself would rather be beat on the track by someone who is a better driver and who can have a better setup than myself then to just be outspent.
That would be nice. Not sure if it's possible, simply due to human nature. At our local track they are racing Tamiya Euro trucks. Everything is spec'd, supposedly to keep things equal.

Until the one knob is over in the corner with a lipo heating blanket...to win the SLOWEST class at the track. People will always find a way...



Mark C.
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Old 03-21-2018, 10:59 AM
  #190  
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So basically this whole thing is about people’s “feelings”?

They want to “feel” like they got beat by talent or knowledge and not “feel” like they got beat by deeper pockets..... but the out come is the same.


I had this very conversation at a track last weekend with some one. After the track ran a “spec” motor class the week before.

I ask the guy I was speaking with what changed other than the motors everyone was running.

The same fast guys still won. They were 2-3 laps up on the same guys. And lap times from the top to the bottom guys were still half a second a lap different.

His reply was “ I feel better knowing everyone has the same motor”.

It didn’t matter that the out come was the same. It was all about how he “felt” about it.

Lol
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Old 03-21-2018, 11:02 AM
  #191  
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With a tighter field the slower drivers wonít have to repeatedly move over lap after lap from being out motored ( and still, yes also out driven ). But it makes the newer driver less inclined to give up when they donít have to move off the line and dirty their tires up as often just because someone else has a bigger budget to find more HP. Sure, itís not only horsepower, itís experience and chassis setup, but HP is the one thing that can be purchased more easily than any other thing, imho.
This whole conclusion that itís one thing or the other is really sad to read. Its a combination of things that help or hurt a class from being successful = retaining participants. Stop ďthrowing out the baby with the bath waterĒ. Making progress in the right direction, even if itís small, is always going to be the right direction. In my opinion the motor wars are the biggest drain on racers of all levels having fun and recommending others join the fun.... thereby increasing new blood in the hobby.

Jake
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Old 03-21-2018, 11:05 AM
  #192  
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Originally Posted by MUDVAYNE View Post
Mark, I don't think this thread was started to make things "fair", but to see if there is a way to keep from having to buy the motor of the month. I myself would rather be beat on the track by someone who is a better driver and who can have a better setup than myself then to just be outspent.
And then what? Let's assume that through some miracle every track goes to the same spec motor, cool you say because it's now even. But then the crybabies will be on here complaining because "that guy" is buying 20 batteries to get the lowest ir. Where will it ever stop? Money has and will always be a big factor in who wins, maybe if everyone would just stop the tears and just go racing for FUN none of this garbage would be a problem. I go to the track to have fun, if I'm lucky enough to win that's a nice bonus. Some of you all need to stop thinking this is a career and just have fun. It's toy cars people get over it.
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Old 03-21-2018, 11:16 AM
  #193  
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I’m wondering what this motor of the month is. Ever since the trinity fiasco a year or so ago, then ROAR coming down with new IR rules for each “spec” wind, I haven’t seen any truly stand out motor in any of the spec classes.

While it is true that the new 21.5’s are faster than the 17.5’s from a couple of years ago, I think the playing field is pretty even now. There are 3-4 companies at the top of the list, and of you have one of their motors and lose, it’s you, not the motor. And guess what, since the new rules in place, each new generation of motor won’t really be any faster, but maybe lighter and have a larger power band/tuning window. And no amount of “specing” the motor will keep good motor tweakers from tuning it to be faster than yours. Time to read a book, watch a you tube video, a make a friend that can help if you’re not good at tuning them.

I bought a $150 “super tuned” motor for the southern nats last year and it was a friggin dog. Even had some factory reps from that company try and help. Dropped in a $100 off the shelf (just asked someone with a motorlyzer to help set accurate timing) for the mains and instantly was going almost a second faster per lap.

You don’t need all this spec junk, just buy a motor from a quality, reputable company, learn to actaully set up your car, drive clean lines, and stop blaming your loss on factors you can’t control, just focus on what you can control. Do that, and you’ll not only have a lot more fun, you might actaully get on the podium from time to time.

Im also going to add, that while the newb may or may not be getting “out horse powered”. If they are already bouncing off the walls, do they really need any extra horse power, real or perceived? They need guidance and advice on how to drive and tune from the guys that are lapping them more than they need that extra 100 RPM.
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Old 03-21-2018, 11:20 AM
  #194  
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Finally some one that gets it!!!!!


As for the new guy having to move over so much....that’s what resorts and mains are for to group like skill and ability levels.

As a seasoned racer talk the new guy off the ledge of always feeling like they are “out motored”.

Explain to them it’s a sum of everything, not just equipment.

Take the time to show them the proper ways to do things. Show them the proper lines they should be taking to go faster. Show them how to build shocks, what caster,camber and toe all do.

I have buddy “same one I had the conversation with about the spec motors”, that on more than one race day I have gone onto the track and stood in a corner and made him drive around me because he was not on the proper race line.

I have even taken items and placed them on the track and made him drive around them to show him the race line or where he is over driving corners.

Every time we do this he drops a few tenths off his previous lap time.

His reply most of the time is “ man I ran a faster lap and felt like I was going so slow.


As racers, shop owners and race directors. WE should never tell the newest guy in the building he MUST buy the best to be competitive.......he’s not going to be competitive with the best in the first place.

They should be taught consistency first. Then worry about $175 motors and $400 chargers and $100 batteries.


And as some one already said...if motors goto spec and everyone of them is the same. There will be some one that will complain about something else as to why they aren’t winning.

But keep up this thread it’s fun to read. Lol
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Old 03-21-2018, 11:52 AM
  #195  
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