Like Tree698Likes

Handout motors

Old 03-20-2018, 08:27 AM
  #151  
Tech Master
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,457
Default

This sounds good but doesn't seem realistic at all of the tracks. If a racer has the $ he will spend it to go faster.

Originally Posted by DARKSIDE View Post
so if its cost?...that's easy....don't buy the crazy high motors. Easier said than done?.... not really...Ive stated before that we are our own worst enemy. Just stop and look what we(racers) have done.... we created this issue and its up to us to solve it.

Don't spend that type of money knowing your fellow racers cant afford to do the same. Cause you are forcing them to spend what they don't have, or to quit all together. ROAR rules say $150 or under, heck shoot for less at your club...hey you want to run this or that,....any ROAR motor under $100...give or take $20 for taxes ect...

or you could do like a lot of us do and simply handicap your speed to be on par with others racing with you...Ive done it and others have done it for me.

Us racers must understand that we are all in this together. Yes we are "RACERS", but that doesn't mean nothing without somebody to race....help your slower/budget racers get up to speed without them dropping the new motor every 3 months. Show them how to get the older motor to peak speed with setup and practice....then slow your rocket down to make it competitive for you both.
Lone Drifter likes this.
outlandr91 is offline  
Old 03-20-2018, 08:28 AM
  #152  
Tech Elite
iTrader: (21)
 
GrandeGixxer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Waldorf, MD
Posts: 3,322
Trader Rating: 21 (100%+)
Default

I’ll give my side from a consumers standpoint. Electric is not what I run, it’s what I run in the winter when I can’t run nitro because of the weather. The handout motor class allowed me to pay $40 to use the motor for the whole season. We ran a fixed fdr as well to make it more even. So instead of paying $150 probably twice for motors, I had the inconvenience of installing and removing a motor each race day and only paying $40 for the whole season.

That’s a lot of tires and bodies if you do the math.
GrandeGixxer is offline  
Old 03-20-2018, 08:48 AM
  #153  
Tech Elite
 
R Dodge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,841
Default

I like the idea of spec/handout motors. I think the format we used at Stock Wars this year was great but can be better. This year I plan to incorporate a few different manufacturers instead of just Motiv. This was something I didn't give myself time to do last year but I already have some interest from a few other companies for SW'18.

Most already know that Stock Wars '17 used the Motiv MCR 17.5 with timing set by Paul to 35* on his motolyser. TC used spec gearing while 1/12 had open gearing. This worked great. Nobody damaged a motor from heat and everyone seemed happy with its performance. The speed was good in TC and 1/12, and everyone had nearly identical power. 1/12 was still a little bit of a gearing game - you could gear up to get a fast lap up front, or gear to go faster toward the end. Bottom line, nobody had anything special or hand-picked/hand-built that can't be bought, and I feel that is the big advantage to handout/spec motors. Also, nobody in the handout classes had to buy a motor for $100-$150 and worry that it might not pass tech... Or even worry that it might be a dud.

One thing I would like to see is for events like Halloween Classic, Stock Wars, Indoor Champs etc. to get on the same page with spec motors. I know there are more races considering spec/handout motors and I would love to work with them as well so we can all be on the same page. There are a lot of possibilities on how this could be done, and there are so many positive outcomes that could come from this. This could trickle down into club racing. If our club knows that say 3-5 of the biggest races of the year will use a specific motor for TC and a specific motor for 1/12, our club can use that for weekly racing and apply a similar program to Jackson RC in NJ, 180 Raceway in MD and 360V2 in NY. This could happen for tracks nationwide.

To answer Ken's original questions:

Which classes need it the worst?
- Pretty much anything that isn't Mod.

How can the motor manufactures still showcase their product?
- They can compete to be selected as the motor for a specific class.

Cheap fixed/sealed motor or standard motors all set the same?
- Depends on the wind. If staying in the 13.5-25.5 range the ideal setup would be standard motors that are all checked and built to be the same. Sensor boards vary too much unless you go with something like a 10.5 and a crazy high FDR like 360v2 did.

Does a specific wind matter or a unspecified motor labeled as "stock"? (similar to 360v2.)
- Based on what I see from 360, not really. Their setup is punchy but laptimes are similar to current 17.5 speeds. Motor temp is not an issue due to the fixed FDR. They selected this motor and gearing by testing them without fans, so if someone breaks a fan during a run the motor will not be damaged.
R Dodge is offline  
Old 03-20-2018, 08:51 AM
  #154  
Tech Elite
 
R Dodge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,841
Default

Originally Posted by Lone Drifter View Post
The handout motors are there to limit the high rollers who get thier motors and equipment directly from the manufacturers .
If you have to buy 5-10 motors to get a good one that just proves the lack of tolerances that the manufacturers have,
Originally Posted by Marcos.J View Post
eliminate any sponsor racer from any spec class ,

Do random draw. At Stock Wars the motors were drawn randomly. People could buy another motor, but nobody did. If you fear someone will want to buy more motors, limit it to 2 per person and track it just like we do with tires now.
R Dodge is offline  
Old 03-20-2018, 09:10 AM
  #155  
Tech Elite
iTrader: (37)
 
jlfx car audio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: jackson,tn
Posts: 3,834
Trader Rating: 37 (100%+)
Default

Someone gets it !!!!!!
race promotor (track owner) finds/chooses the motor to run in each class except for mod/open classes. if they want a $23 brushed motor or a $150 R1 motor for that class its his call but everyone runs it and they are all checked and they are ALL legal for that event . no time wasted in tech with 15 motors trying to push 1 fast motor thru...
NutDriver likes this.
jlfx car audio is offline  
Old 03-20-2018, 10:19 AM
  #156  
Tech Elite
iTrader: (24)
 
NutDriver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,838
Trader Rating: 24 (100%+)
Default

Justin,
You mention "no time wasted in tech with 15 motors trying to push 1 fast motor through". Were people bringing a handful of motors to tech in Nashville to do that?
NutDriver is offline  
Old 03-20-2018, 11:04 AM
  #157  
Tech Regular
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Framingham, MA
Posts: 371
Default

Originally Posted by nexxus View Post
The only way I can see a control motor class working is if you are using an item ready made to suit, and something that is commercially available on a wide scale, not just reliant on one importer, a handful of resellers and arbitrary testing and "levelling out" by a couple of people.

In that sense, the only motor that looks like it'd work is the Hobbywing Justock range, you can buy them everywhere, there is very little scope for any sort of motor tweaking or tuning and therefore the need for lengthy scrutinizing is not there.

Downside is, the 21.5 Justock, compared to the 21.5 motors many of us are now accustomed is slow, ie, fall asleep at the wheel slow. So to get people up to the same speed, the 'control' motor may need to be a turn or so higher (ie 21.5 class use a 17.5 Justock). People can then run whatever gearing etc they choose, the timing can't change, it's a $57 usd motor (I think?), if they want to grab a couple in the belief there is a significant variance in performance, more power to them.... The key point is the motors are already everywhere, you can rattle off a number of online stores that sell them fairly easily (Amain, Asiatees etc)

It's something that done right, can be quite beneficial, but done wrong, can kill a class very quickly. (Case in point 17.5 Stock offroad in Western Australia is essentially dead since the control motor, classes didn't even run at 2018 State titles due to insufficient entries)
In Connecticut they have this working in the 2wd buggy class for the 2nd year. Last year they had a slow 17.5 with a Juststock esc and it was bad like you mentioned. Any time the entries were low and combined with spec, people were running to swap motors as fast as possible.

This year it's a Trinity Equalizer 13.5 spec motor and it runs about the same as a TSR 17.5 The One and it gears roughly the same as well. More people have stayed with the 13.5 spec and they seem happy in comparison to past years. Combined races with regular stock are rarely needed, but the lap time are within a tenth of a second, so no motor swap needed.
Eddie_E is offline  
Old 03-20-2018, 01:33 PM
  #158  
Tech Elite
iTrader: (2)
 
gigaplex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Melbourne, VIC
Posts: 3,553
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by Marcos.J View Post
trying to keep the cost down is stupid why worry about an expensive motor when guys are paying $500-$600 plus on kits already , is like buying a Corvette Z06 and then complaining about paying $3plus per gallon for premium gas

maybe spec motors/handout to keep the racing equal
So instead of paying $500+ on the kit, you propose we still pay $500+ on the kit AND keep paying hundreds of dollars on new motors in the motor wars? It's too expensive for a lot of people. I'm pretty competitive with my old cars (TC3, TC5) and the super cheap Blaze R2, but only when I'm using my new current gen motor. The motor has a much bigger impact than the chassis model in the stock classes.
gigaplex is offline  
Old 03-20-2018, 01:36 PM
  #159  
Tech Elite
iTrader: (2)
 
gigaplex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Melbourne, VIC
Posts: 3,553
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by DARKSIDE View Post
so if its cost?...that's easy....don't buy the crazy high motors. Easier said than done?.... not really...Ive stated before that we are our own worst enemy. Just stop and look what we(racers) have done.... we created this issue and its up to us to solve it.
Great idea. Don't buy the expensive motors. There are two ways to do that. Have a spec motor, or personally choose to buy a motor that isn't competitive with the rest of the field. It sounds like you're suggesting we make a gentleman's agreement to run cheaper motors and avoid the motor war, so why not just make it an actual rule?
Lone Drifter likes this.

Last edited by gigaplex; 03-20-2018 at 01:54 PM.
gigaplex is offline  
Old 03-20-2018, 03:35 PM
  #160  
Tech Elite
iTrader: (37)
 
jlfx car audio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: jackson,tn
Posts: 3,834
Trader Rating: 37 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by NutDriver View Post
Justin,
You mention "no time wasted in tech with 15 motors trying to push 1 fast motor through". Were people bringing a handful of motors to tech in Nashville to do that?
Several were going up with fist fulls of motors trying to get the hottest motors to pass first. But having several fail . I had a off the shelf never touched motor fail.
jlfx car audio is offline  
Old 03-20-2018, 03:38 PM
  #161  
Tech Fanatic
iTrader: (6)
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Miami Beach
Posts: 963
Trader Rating: 6 (100%+)
Default

My suggestion is to allow timing and boost. Hence a cheaper motor will still be competitive. Someone posted that blinky became popular because the speed controls got very expensive. I believe today, one can purchase a mid priced speed control that has boost and timing, thus eliminating the need for a $175 dollar motor. The ESC will last a lot longer than the motor of the month.......Hence, racing will be more affordable and on a more level playing field.... I posted this thought earlier, but decided to do it again via different language..... FYI I have a 48 dollar trackstar ESC that I am using in one of my cars...... I have had it for 4 years and run mod with it. I also have 200 dollar HW ESC's. I made the A main with the 48 dollar ESC at a big Roar Race.... And a used 30 dollar old Reedy motor that I purchased on RCTech...

21.5 boosted TC class and 17.5 boosted TC class is what we should try....
SouthFloridaApp is offline  
Old 03-20-2018, 03:58 PM
  #162  
Super Moderator
iTrader: (221)
 
Marcos.J's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Semper Fi
Posts: 31,370
Trader Rating: 221 (100%+)
Default

1
Originally Posted by SouthFloridaApp View Post
My suggestion is to allow timing and boost. Hence a cheaper motor will still be competitive. Someone posted that blinky became popular because the speed controls got very expensive. I believe today, one can purchase a mid priced speed control that has boost and timing, thus eliminating the need for a $175 dollar motor. The ESC will last a lot longer than the motor of the month.......Hence, racing will be more affordable and on a more level playing field.... I posted this thought earlier, but decided to do it again via different language..... FYI I have a 48 dollar trackstar ESC that I am using in one of my cars...... I have had it for 4 years and run mod with it. I also have 200 dollar HW ESC's. I made the A main with the 48 dollar ESC at a big Roar Race.... And a used 30 dollar old Reedy motor that I purchased on RCTech...

21.5 boosted TC class and 17.5 boosted TC class is what we should try....
how about just have mod class 21.5 and 17.5 is so close in times at almost every track .

class should be 25.5 blinky and mod
Marcos.J is offline  
Old 03-20-2018, 04:15 PM
  #163  
Tech Elite
iTrader: (37)
 
jlfx car audio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: jackson,tn
Posts: 3,834
Trader Rating: 37 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by Marcos.J View Post
1

how about just have mod class 21.5 and 17.5 is so close in times at almost every track .

class should be 25.5 blinky and mod
Not a bad idea really ...
Marcos.J likes this.
jlfx car audio is offline  
Old 03-20-2018, 04:39 PM
  #164  
Tech Elite
iTrader: (2)
 
DesertRat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Sniffin the 'Sauce Fumes
Posts: 3,620
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default

I personally think that for each chassis type, your average Local Hobby Shop should have the following classes:


Touring:

Novice Stock: Where the 'rules' are flexible so RTR's or any other car are welcome but at least TRY to have something close to legal. Race directors discretion, drivers of obvious ringer cars will be chastised.

Expert Stock: Full rules including weight and motor checks. Spec tires. Possibly handout motors as well.

Mod: Battery and weight checks. Should probably have spec tires.

BUT we don't have this, we have Novice, VTA, USGT, Front Wheel Drive, Stock and Super Stock. Its like adding five gallons of tap water to a one gallon soup.
DesertRat is offline  
Old 03-20-2018, 04:40 PM
  #165  
Tech Elite
iTrader: (2)
 
gigaplex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Melbourne, VIC
Posts: 3,553
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by jlfx car audio View Post
Several were going up with fist fulls of motors trying to get the hottest motors to pass first. But having several fail . I had a off the shelf never touched motor fail.
You don't have rules limiting how many motors can be presented to tech? We're allowed 2 at initial presentation, and extras are only allowed on a case by case basis after that.
gigaplex is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.