Go Back  R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road
Understanding F1 Tuning: Letís break it down >

Understanding F1 Tuning: Letís break it down

Like Tree253Likes

Understanding F1 Tuning: Letís break it down

Reply

Old 01-25-2018, 02:24 PM
  #1  
Tech Apprentice
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: San Diego
Posts: 90
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default Understanding F1 Tuning: Letís break it down

Inspired by this post which I use often for off-road, I thought about creating one for F1. https://www.rctech.net/forum/electri...ng-racing.html

Iím still rather new the the F1 scene, just a single outdoor season under my belt and learned a ton. Took nearly the entire season to make the podium and over that time I saw a number of people try, then quickly drop their car and go back to Touring. Part of the problem is taking a setup from a site, installing it, then not necessarily knowing what to adjust to make it suitable for driver/track. While theory is the same, the setups are different from what works on Touring so it's not an easy jump. Let's change that, together.

Following that thread, Iíve created a similar format and through searches here and elsewhere, the X1 setup sheet, etc, this is what Iíve drafted so far. BTW - The X1 setup sheet is great, but I think more in terms of vehicle response then specific parts on the car - hence the difference.

Whatís incorrect? What other options are there? What should be added? As I said, Iím no means an expert and could use the input of you smart guys. I think this will be fun.

Things I know it needs already: Better use of side springs and side tubes; maybe radio adjustments; impact of lube in front axles; ball diff v gear diff;

____

As of 1/25 - Will update as the thread evolves.

Intended Goal = More rear traction
Increase rear wing angle
Softer center shock spring
Lower rear ride height
Increase front ride height
Lighter center shock oil
Softer rear tire compound; harder for the front

Intended Goal = More overall steering
Softer front spring
Heavier center shock oil
Increase camber
Decrease castor
Softer front tire compound
Increase center shock preload
Decrease track width
Lower rear wing position

Intended Goal = More off power steering
Softer center shock spring

Intended Goal = More on power steering
Lower roll center
Increase rear pod droop
Flatter center shock position
Stiffer center shock spring
Decrease rear wing angle
Lower front ride height; increase rear

Intended Goal = Guidance for moving to high grip surfaces
Use softer oils in side tubes
Increase roll center
Use Cross battery config

Intended Goal = Guidance for moving to low grip surfaces
Use heavier oils in side tubes
Use inline battery config
DanOK, Mr Brooksy and Holmestead like this.
mstrfahrenheit is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2018, 02:46 PM
  #2  
Tech Elite
iTrader: (2)
 
DesertRat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Sniffin the 'Sauce Fumes
Posts: 3,110
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default

The 1/12 pan car forum has a Wiki that includes a tuning guide that according to some racers has been useful in tuning F1 cars, as they are all pan cars.
liljohn1064 likes this.
DesertRat is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2018, 06:04 PM
  #3  
Tech Regular
iTrader: (29)
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 356
Trader Rating: 29 (100%+)
Default

excellent post!
already subscribed!
First Idea of tuning tip to add in your list for me will be How to adjust roll center!
I mean , what are impact on the car when you add or remove shims under front LOWER and UPPER arms...

I love to spent all day in practice to see impact on what I am doing on my F1 chassis!
pat5b is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2018, 06:40 PM
  #4  
Tech Master
iTrader: (33)
 
idbdoug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Above FltLevel300
Posts: 1,668
Trader Rating: 33 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by pat5b View Post
excellent post!
already subscribed!
First Idea of tuning tip to add in your list for me will be How to adjust roll center!
I mean , what are impact on the car when you add or remove shims under front LOWER and UPPER arms...

I love to spent all day in practice to see impact on what I am doing on my F1
chassis!
Raising the steering knuckle on the kingpin gives more entry steering and lowering takes away steering assuming of course you can get the correct ride height. Not sure if itís technically roll center
idbdoug
pat5b likes this.
idbdoug is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2018, 07:06 PM
  #5  
Tech Master
iTrader: (5)
 
foampervert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,446
Trader Rating: 5 (100%+)
Default It's a pan car...

Originally Posted by pat5b View Post
excellent post!
already subscribed!
First Idea of tuning tip to add in your list for me will be How to adjust roll center!
I mean , what are impact on the car when you add or remove shims under front LOWER and UPPER arms...

I love to spent all day in practice to see impact on what I am doing on my F1 chassis!
The truth is, unless you drive on mega grippy surfaces, the front roll centre doesn't affect as much as any rear adjustment.
These adjustments make a larger difference to handling:
-tyres
-wings (front and rear)
-droop
-front and rear ride heights
-rear roll (springs, damping, roll centres)
-bodyshell
-ackerman
-caster
-camber



And finally, front roll centre.

Of cos, this applies to the majority of the f1 cars with limited front suspension designs. There are some with articulated front suspensions like the cross fireforce, yokomo f1 and exotek ifs front. These are different as the amount of front articulation is quite a bit more and roll centres actually matter.
pat5b likes this.
foampervert is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2018, 10:29 AM
  #6  
Tech Elite
 
JayL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Ca
Posts: 2,982
Default

Good start, from team xray
Attached Files
File Type: pdf
helper.pdf (778.4 KB, 477 views)
idbdoug and liljohn1064 like this.
JayL is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2018, 10:49 AM
  #7  
Tech Champion
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Hawaii, USA
Posts: 7,192
Default

With rubber tires, softer is not always more grip. On hot asphalt it can actually mean less grip because the rubber gets oily when it overheats.
Antimullet likes this.
InspGadgt is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2018, 03:21 PM
  #8  
Tech Regular
iTrader: (12)
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Plantation, FL
Posts: 406
Trader Rating: 12 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by InspGadgt View Post
With rubber tires, softer is not always more grip. On hot asphalt it can actually mean less grip because the rubber gets oily when it overheats.
This is a true statement!
astgerma52sp is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2018, 03:30 PM
  #9  
Tech Master
iTrader: (33)
 
idbdoug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Above FltLevel300
Posts: 1,668
Trader Rating: 33 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by JayL View Post
Good start, from team xray
The one thing I notice not mentioned is whether your car has the option of inline or trailing axles and X-rayís are inline. Some brands offer the option of both which is the great tuning option and I know I prefer trailing on carpet
idbdoug
idbdoug is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2018, 11:38 AM
  #10  
Tech Champion
iTrader: (22)
 
robk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Macho Business Donkey Wrestler
Posts: 7,739
Trader Rating: 22 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by foampervert View Post
The truth is, unless you drive on mega grippy surfaces, the front roll centre doesn't affect as much as any rear adjustment.
These adjustments make a larger difference to handling:
-tyres
-wings (front and rear)
-droop
-front and rear ride heights
-rear roll (springs, damping, roll centres)
-bodyshell
-ackerman
-caster
-camber



And finally, front roll centre.

Of cos, this applies to the majority of the f1 cars with limited front suspension designs. There are some with articulated front suspensions like the cross fireforce, yokomo f1 and exotek ifs front. These are different as the amount of front articulation is quite a bit more and roll centres actually matter.
I agree with most of this, except that wings are a very small part of things outside of weight, and bodyshells do nothing. Front roll center is actually useful, but I think the lower arm height is what you really have to alter more than upper arm angle. The upper arm seems more like camber gain than the effect it has on roll center. I had pretty good results with the tamiya carbon front end changing the height of the lower arm on asphalt to get the car what I was looking for.

Honestly, I think steering geometry is a huge part of getting the car to do what you want. Ackermann and toe can really change the car, but you have to check the car on a setup station to make sure everything is constant run to run when making changes, which is time consuming,

I have run massive amounts of front toe (like 3* per side) to calm the car down. The problem here is that it can kill the tires in the last half of the run, especially on carpet. A lot of toe seems more useful on lower traction asphalt.

The same thing with the bump steer adjustments. Vertical servo output shaft vs. horizontal on a direct steer setup is a big choice. Seems like the vertical shaft (output shaft pointing at the ceiling) is more linear, but maybe more steering overall, and horizontal (shaft pointing at the front of the car) is more aggressive initially, but loses some steering mid corner...? Again, it takes a while to changeGenerall this stuff back and forth, so I don't have really solid conclusions, but that is what it seems like to me.

Beyond initial servo orientation, generally the more angle in the tie rod from servo/bellcrank to the knuckle as viewed from above is more aggressive feeling, but feels like it binds up mid corner (less ackermann). I like it a little more on asphalt, some of the drag is almost a brake effect. Straighter tie rods seem to roll through the corner better. This stuff is why the option xray bell crank with the fine tooth adjustment is great. With direct steer, the servo saver also plays a role, since the distance between ball studs makes a difference in the wheel angles as the car steers. Closer together felt more aggressive to me.

Generally, if the tie rod is higher at the knuckle, viewing the car from the front. it will be more aggressive at turn in. If the rod is higher at the servo saver/bellcrank, it will turn more mid corner and exit. It's hard to give 100% concrete rules on this as all the stuff mentioned above plays into how the car steers since it's all dynamic.
robk is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2018, 11:07 AM
  #11  
Tech Addict
 
fathead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Auckland NZ
Posts: 609
Default

fyi the front suspension on the majority of current f1's (ie.fixed bottom arm moving top arm) is an inverted Macpherson strut for working out roll centre
30Tooth and Nerobro like this.
fathead is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2018, 08:34 PM
  #12  
Tech Apprentice
 
GT CRUSING's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 86
Default

One thing I tried was adding a T wing element to My Xray F1 car just like the 2017 season

At first, it was a joke amongs friends to the new F1 rules and in my club, there is freedom amongst the rules for wings and everybody has their own wings.

But at first, this was not working for me as it actually lowered my lap times. Then I lowered the rear wing just slightly under the T wing from the very top and it had some performance benefits

The T wing kept the car very stable in straight line and prevented traction rolling in tight hairpin turns. Only need to add a Halo, lol
GT CRUSING is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2018, 09:22 AM
  #13  
Tech Regular
 
Pinkz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Down in a Hole
Posts: 299
Default

Originally Posted by mstrfahrenheit View Post
over that time I saw a number of people try, then quickly drop their car and go back to Touring.

Intended Goal = Guidance for moving to high grip surfaces
Use softer oils in side tubes
Increase roll center
Use Cross battery config

Intended Goal = Guidance for moving to low grip surfaces
Use heavier oils in side tubes
Use inline battery config
see the above alot when it comes to pan cars in general. the cars appear deceptively simple. i see racers slave over offroad, TC, etc cars fix and adjust everything all the time, yet get a pan car, seem endlessly lost.

as for pack placement i have found cross best for low traction asphalt, low med gray carpet, and inline for med/hi traction darker grey called black carpet
Pinkz is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2018, 09:41 AM
  #14  
Tech Apprentice
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: San Diego
Posts: 90
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default

still watching this thread. I had to travel for work last week but I'm going to try and summarize the responses so far. thanks for participating!
mstrfahrenheit is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2018, 09:51 AM
  #15  
Tech Champion
iTrader: (17)
 
liljohn1064's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Deerfield, WI
Posts: 5,716
Trader Rating: 17 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by Pinkz View Post
see the above alot when it comes to pan cars in general. the cars appear deceptively simple. i see racers slave over offroad, TC, etc cars fix and adjust everything all the time, yet get a pan car, seem endlessly lost.

as for pack placement i have found cross best for low traction asphalt, low med gray carpet, and inline for med/hi traction darker grey called black carpet
It's not the being endlessly lost. It is the lack of ambition to try different setups and learn the cars and putting in a few hours of practice. Many rely on other peoples setups instead of tuning the car to their driving style and then to the track. Usually when you get a pan car right, it's never more than a spring change or damper lube adjustment away from being perfect for you again, especially if you only race at one track like most club level racers. The guide JayL posted will work for any F1/Pan car. XRAY did a great job on it. Everyone should have a copy in their pit box. You are pretty much right on for battery placement per surface.

80% of F1 is tires and tire prep once the car is set. Setting up a car on bad tires is a waste of time, you will be fighting the track instead of dialing in your car.
liljohn1064 is offline  
Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service