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-   -   Understanding F1 Tuning: Letís break it down (https://www.rctech.net/forum/electric-road/1008833-understanding-f1-tuning-let%92s-break-down.html)

mstrfahrenheit 01-25-2018 03:24 PM

Understanding F1 Tuning: Letís break it down
 
Inspired by this post which I use often for off-road, I thought about creating one for F1. https://www.rctech.net/forum/electri...ng-racing.html

Iím still rather new the the F1 scene, just a single outdoor season under my belt and learned a ton. Took nearly the entire season to make the podium and over that time I saw a number of people try, then quickly drop their car and go back to Touring. Part of the problem is taking a setup from a site, installing it, then not necessarily knowing what to adjust to make it suitable for driver/track. While theory is the same, the setups are different from what works on Touring so it's not an easy jump. Let's change that, together.

Following that thread, Iíve created a similar format and through searches here and elsewhere, the X1 setup sheet, etc, this is what Iíve drafted so far. BTW - The X1 setup sheet is great, but I think more in terms of vehicle response then specific parts on the car - hence the difference.

Whatís incorrect? What other options are there? What should be added? As I said, Iím no means an expert and could use the input of you smart guys. I think this will be fun.

Things I know it needs already: Better use of side springs and side tubes; maybe radio adjustments; impact of lube in front axles; ball diff v gear diff;

____

As of 1/25 - Will update as the thread evolves.

Intended Goal = More rear traction
Increase rear wing angle
Softer center shock spring
Lower rear ride height
Increase front ride height
Lighter center shock oil
Softer rear tire compound; harder for the front

Intended Goal = More overall steering
Softer front spring
Heavier center shock oil
Increase camber
Decrease castor
Softer front tire compound
Increase center shock preload
Decrease track width
Lower rear wing position

Intended Goal = More off power steering
Softer center shock spring

Intended Goal = More on power steering
Lower roll center
Increase rear pod droop
Flatter center shock position
Stiffer center shock spring
Decrease rear wing angle
Lower front ride height; increase rear

Intended Goal = Guidance for moving to high grip surfaces
Use softer oils in side tubes
Increase roll center
Use Cross battery config

Intended Goal = Guidance for moving to low grip surfaces
Use heavier oils in side tubes
Use inline battery config

DesertRat 01-25-2018 03:46 PM

The 1/12 pan car forum has a Wiki that includes a tuning guide that according to some racers has been useful in tuning F1 cars, as they are all pan cars.

pat5b 01-25-2018 07:04 PM

excellent post!
already subscribed!
First Idea of tuning tip to add in your list for me will be How to adjust roll center!
I mean , what are impact on the car when you add or remove shims under front LOWER and UPPER arms...

I love to spent all day in practice to see impact on what I am doing on my F1 chassis!

idbdoug 01-25-2018 07:40 PM


Originally Posted by pat5b (Post 15140106)
excellent post!
already subscribed!
First Idea of tuning tip to add in your list for me will be How to adjust roll center!
I mean , what are impact on the car when you add or remove shims under front LOWER and UPPER arms...

I love to spent all day in practice to see impact on what I am doing on my F1
chassis!

Raising the steering knuckle on the kingpin gives more entry steering and lowering takes away steering assuming of course you can get the correct ride height. Not sure if itís technically roll center
idbdoug

foampervert 01-25-2018 08:06 PM

It's a pan car...
 

Originally Posted by pat5b (Post 15140106)
excellent post!
already subscribed!
First Idea of tuning tip to add in your list for me will be How to adjust roll center!
I mean , what are impact on the car when you add or remove shims under front LOWER and UPPER arms...

I love to spent all day in practice to see impact on what I am doing on my F1 chassis!

The truth is, unless you drive on mega grippy surfaces, the front roll centre doesn't affect as much as any rear adjustment.
These adjustments make a larger difference to handling:
-tyres
-wings (front and rear)
-droop
-front and rear ride heights
-rear roll (springs, damping, roll centres)
-bodyshell
-ackerman
-caster
-camber



And finally, front roll centre.

Of cos, this applies to the majority of the f1 cars with limited front suspension designs. There are some with articulated front suspensions like the cross fireforce, yokomo f1 and exotek ifs front. These are different as the amount of front articulation is quite a bit more and roll centres actually matter.

JayL 01-26-2018 11:29 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Good start, from team xray

InspGadgt 01-26-2018 11:49 AM

With rubber tires, softer is not always more grip. On hot asphalt it can actually mean less grip because the rubber gets oily when it overheats.

astgerma52sp 01-26-2018 04:21 PM


Originally Posted by InspGadgt (Post 15140670)
With rubber tires, softer is not always more grip. On hot asphalt it can actually mean less grip because the rubber gets oily when it overheats.

This is a true statement!

idbdoug 01-26-2018 04:30 PM


Originally Posted by JayL (Post 15140653)
Good start, from team xray

The one thing I notice not mentioned is whether your car has the option of inline or trailing axles and X-rayís are inline. Some brands offer the option of both which is the great tuning option and I know I prefer trailing on carpet
idbdoug

robk 01-27-2018 12:38 PM


Originally Posted by foampervert (Post 15140152)
The truth is, unless you drive on mega grippy surfaces, the front roll centre doesn't affect as much as any rear adjustment.
These adjustments make a larger difference to handling:
-tyres
-wings (front and rear)
-droop
-front and rear ride heights
-rear roll (springs, damping, roll centres)
-bodyshell
-ackerman
-caster
-camber



And finally, front roll centre.

Of cos, this applies to the majority of the f1 cars with limited front suspension designs. There are some with articulated front suspensions like the cross fireforce, yokomo f1 and exotek ifs front. These are different as the amount of front articulation is quite a bit more and roll centres actually matter.

I agree with most of this, except that wings are a very small part of things outside of weight, and bodyshells do nothing. Front roll center is actually useful, but I think the lower arm height is what you really have to alter more than upper arm angle. The upper arm seems more like camber gain than the effect it has on roll center. I had pretty good results with the tamiya carbon front end changing the height of the lower arm on asphalt to get the car what I was looking for.

Honestly, I think steering geometry is a huge part of getting the car to do what you want. Ackermann and toe can really change the car, but you have to check the car on a setup station to make sure everything is constant run to run when making changes, which is time consuming,

I have run massive amounts of front toe (like 3* per side) to calm the car down. The problem here is that it can kill the tires in the last half of the run, especially on carpet. A lot of toe seems more useful on lower traction asphalt.

The same thing with the bump steer adjustments. Vertical servo output shaft vs. horizontal on a direct steer setup is a big choice. Seems like the vertical shaft (output shaft pointing at the ceiling) is more linear, but maybe more steering overall, and horizontal (shaft pointing at the front of the car) is more aggressive initially, but loses some steering mid corner...? Again, it takes a while to changeGenerall this stuff back and forth, so I don't have really solid conclusions, but that is what it seems like to me.

Beyond initial servo orientation, generally the more angle in the tie rod from servo/bellcrank to the knuckle as viewed from above is more aggressive feeling, but feels like it binds up mid corner (less ackermann). I like it a little more on asphalt, some of the drag is almost a brake effect. Straighter tie rods seem to roll through the corner better. This stuff is why the option xray bell crank with the fine tooth adjustment is great. With direct steer, the servo saver also plays a role, since the distance between ball studs makes a difference in the wheel angles as the car steers. Closer together felt more aggressive to me.

Generally, if the tie rod is higher at the knuckle, viewing the car from the front. it will be more aggressive at turn in. If the rod is higher at the servo saver/bellcrank, it will turn more mid corner and exit. It's hard to give 100% concrete rules on this as all the stuff mentioned above plays into how the car steers since it's all dynamic.

fathead 01-28-2018 12:07 PM

fyi the front suspension on the majority of current f1's (ie.fixed bottom arm moving top arm) is an inverted Macpherson strut for working out roll centre

GT CRUSING 01-29-2018 09:34 PM

One thing I tried was adding a T wing element to My Xray F1 car just like the 2017 season
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rct...60cab07c6.jpeg
At first, it was a joke amongs friends to the new F1 rules and in my club, there is freedom amongst the rules for wings and everybody has their own wings.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rct...515575360.jpeg
But at first, this was not working for me as it actually lowered my lap times. Then I lowered the rear wing just slightly under the T wing from the very top and it had some performance benefits
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rct...de57e2beb.jpeg
The T wing kept the car very stable in straight line and prevented traction rolling in tight hairpin turns. Only need to add a Halo, lol

Pinkz 01-30-2018 10:22 AM


Originally Posted by mstrfahrenheit (Post 15139922)
over that time I saw a number of people try, then quickly drop their car and go back to Touring.

Intended Goal = Guidance for moving to high grip surfaces
Use softer oils in side tubes
Increase roll center
Use Cross battery config

Intended Goal = Guidance for moving to low grip surfaces
Use heavier oils in side tubes
Use inline battery config

see the above alot when it comes to pan cars in general. the cars appear deceptively simple. i see racers slave over offroad, TC, etc cars fix and adjust everything all the time, yet get a pan car, seem endlessly lost.

as for pack placement i have found cross best for low traction asphalt, low med gray carpet, and inline for med/hi traction darker grey called black carpet

mstrfahrenheit 01-30-2018 10:41 AM

still watching this thread. I had to travel for work last week but I'm going to try and summarize the responses so far. thanks for participating!

liljohn1064 01-30-2018 10:51 AM


Originally Posted by Pinkz (Post 15144012)
see the above alot when it comes to pan cars in general. the cars appear deceptively simple. i see racers slave over offroad, TC, etc cars fix and adjust everything all the time, yet get a pan car, seem endlessly lost.

as for pack placement i have found cross best for low traction asphalt, low med gray carpet, and inline for med/hi traction darker grey called black carpet

It's not the being endlessly lost. It is the lack of ambition to try different setups and learn the cars and putting in a few hours of practice. Many rely on other peoples setups instead of tuning the car to their driving style and then to the track. Usually when you get a pan car right, it's never more than a spring change or damper lube adjustment away from being perfect for you again, especially if you only race at one track like most club level racers. The guide JayL posted will work for any F1/Pan car. XRAY did a great job on it. Everyone should have a copy in their pit box. You are pretty much right on for battery placement per surface.

80% of F1 is tires and tire prep once the car is set. Setting up a car on bad tires is a waste of time, you will be fighting the track instead of dialing in your car.


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