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Old 01-26-2006, 05:40 AM   #1
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Default brushed vs brushless motor's???

hi i am just wondering what would be better for the buck in racing,torque speed and durability............for a 1/10th electric 4wd buggy or any electric car, a brushless or brushed mod motor's........which are faster? like for instance the best, highest torque and speed brushless vs the best,highest torque and speed brushed motor.
on the condition that the esc has no motor limit,i just want to know what would produce the most power and speed etc........any advice/info?
also what speed's are they capable of reaching ........for example what turn engine would produce the best performance to say kick it with the nitro's.
is it even possible for an electric to keep up with a .21 nitro racer and how far would you have to push down in the turn scale of a motor.

does Any one know what the lowest turn motor you can buy?and what would the lowest number turn's on a motor be that you can get before it loses speed and power eg; say a 5 turn motor compared to a 7 turn. would the 7 turn be faster than the 5 turn defying the rule of the lower the turn's the more power and speed is produced due to the fact that 5 turn's is too low to produce power.
if you understand that try and answer it......ill be marking it with a red pen at the end of the class......
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Old 01-26-2006, 06:01 AM   #2
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I am assuming that you are not talking about racing at the track in a roar legal configuration if you are trying to race 1/8th. If that is the case you will want a brushless system that is sensorless and can handle more than 7.2 volts. Some guys have been running systems with 11 - 14 volt lipo setups that are insane. I know there is a big brushless section on the Radio Control Zone forums on brushless. But you are looking at $$$ to build one. You will need a lipo charger \ lipos\ ESC and motor. It better be one big track.

For a roar legal system I would look at the sensored brushless system from Novak. They have a 4.5 motor coming out. Personally I have a 5.5 and I can not put it down in my track for a 2wd. 4wd you can use it. You will also want some of the newer batteries. IB3800 will give you some great punch. Unless the track is huge I am not sure a 4.5 will be usefull. More motor will not make you faster. Even the Nitro guys can tell you that. The one that drives the car at the correct speed\line will win. Also I am not sure you can get a 2wd to keep up with a 4wd(assuming both are driven to their ability of the car.). The front wheels pulling is a huge advantage. You would probably need a 4wd buggy.

I would vote brushless over brushed due to maintenance of a mod motor. If you like to tune and tweak I would bet you can get a little more out of a mod for a 5 min run. But with the brushless you just clean the bearing 1 time a month and oil.
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Old 01-26-2006, 06:28 AM   #3
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I used to swear by brushless, but now I'm running a Checkpoint 11x2 in my BJ4 and I get plenty of run-time and 20 - 30 runs between cuts. With an Orion Revolution motor, you can get even more between cuts.

I just got tired of all the problems that have been taking place in the brushless world. I went through 2 LRP/Reedy brushless setups. They didn't fry; they just simply didn't work. The third one I got I just verified that it worked (which it finally did) and then I sold it.

I've also owned two Novak GTB's. While I didn't have any problems with mine, I've watched 2 go up in smoke firsthand. I saw 2 others thermal almost instantly. The drivers using those 4 systems are certainly not novice hobbyists... they've been doing this a long time. The GTB thermal/smoke issue has been acknowledged by Novak "unofficially", but they're not quite sure what the problem is.

Because of what I saw, I figured I'd get out of brushless for now. I love my Checkpoint motors (2 x 11x2, will probably get a 12x2, and will grab the Spec as soon as it hits the shelves).

As far as all the speed questions go, I actually don't really like talking about it. 99% of the people out there running these cars can't effectively utilize the full potential of their powerplant, so I don't quite understand the general obsession with speed. I will say the following, however:

1. For the short time my first NEO/Sphere worked, it felt like a very average 11-turn. They say it's about the same as a 9-turn, and that's absolute bunk.

2. My GTB/Velociti 6.5R combo pretty much felt the same, although the 6.5R is marketed as a 10-turn.

3. From a torque standpoint, you can't beat brushless. That's really where they shine, in my opinion.

My Checkpoint 11x2 would absolutely blow the doors off those two setups (though I've never run the 5.5R from Novak, let alone the 4.5R they have coming out soon). Granted, the Checkpoints are known for being high-revving motors, but that NEO was no 9-turn, and the 6.5R was a VEEEERY sluggish 10-turn at best. That's not necessarily a bad thing, as I was never really able to use all that power anyway; I'm just trying to be honest with how they felt.

If I was still running brushless, I'd no doubt be running Novak. While both products from LRP and Novak are questionable in the stability department, Novak provides superior support, while LRP - in my experience - flatout sucks.
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Old 01-26-2006, 09:12 AM   #4
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Default comm drop's

hmm interesting thank's for the detail and honesty of the answer's guy's i guess knowing all that you have said it's still gonna be a matter of feel to me as the driver (i won't know completely until i practically use them both and experiment)
ok say i go brushed motor's and i go 10x2 or a 11x2 .what will comm drop's do to the motor in the performance department and where do you drop them.
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Old 01-26-2006, 09:18 AM   #5
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You usually use comm drops after you've sprayed the motor out with motor spray. The comm drops help lubricate the contact between the comm and the brushes; so you'll want to place a drop or two directly on the comm. It's important after you spray down your motor that you do this as well as reoil your bearings. Again, a drop or two is all that's necessary.
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Old 01-26-2006, 10:29 AM   #6
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Default BRUSHLESS IS THE FUTURE

I`v goten over 260 runs now on my NEO ...
No problems cept with pullin WHEELIE`S down the staight....


I have saved a ton of money already , enought to pay for another Neo even....

Saved money & time now goes towards things like tires !
Makes my ride even faster .


BONUS :

LONGER RUN TIME means I get more track time compared to running a brush motor ..

While that racer that has to remove the motor & spend more on brush`s after cutting that com....

I`m practicing, getting even more track time to improve myself & my ride to go faster...

BONUS >>> No motor lathe required , spend that money on more stuff that really makes your ride faster !
Like more battery`s...
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Old 01-26-2006, 10:39 AM   #7
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If you don't see yourself needing more power than say a 7-8T brushed motor produces I would suggest you go brushless.

The brushless advantages are: lower long term cost, almost zero eminence, extremely consistent power, greater efficiency.

The brushed motors have a lower initial cost and are available in faster units in the sub 8T range.


Mark
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Old 01-26-2006, 12:21 PM   #8
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If you want less maintenance go brushless. It either works or it fails. So it is quite clean in that respect. The GTB is better than the LRP. Is it somewhat bleeding edge? YEs. If you know how to tune and have the time then a brushed will beat a brushless. Do I think most people can win with either? yes.

It is basically tried and true against new edge. At this point I can say I like the lack of maintenance more than I gain from the motor. I do not drive in the top 10% of the country so I can not tell a major difference.
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Old 01-26-2006, 04:30 PM   #9
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lol i like the wheely thing......... yeeehaaaa....gidyup...lol.
once again thank's for your honesty and detailed answers it help's alot to know the syle of these motor's (wheelies included)...
i may try a brushless system but buy a brushed mod 10 or 11 double.
for fun and the experience and comm drop power boost? is there any other type of power boost drop's or is it just the typical motor spray and comm drop's...........
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Old 01-26-2006, 04:39 PM   #10
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well you all got an A except wild cherry who got an A+ FOR THE WHEELIE THING
thank's guy's much appreciated.......regard's, the up and coming 1/10th 4wd champion of the world.....Aaron.
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Old 01-27-2006, 09:39 AM   #11
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Downunder

Happy to help...
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Old 01-27-2006, 10:34 AM   #12
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George,

You know a wheelie down the straight isn't anything to talk about, but when my buggy held one all through the tunnel it was something to see.

Mark
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Old 01-27-2006, 10:42 AM   #13
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THAT DANG TUNNEL !!!

Glad to see you R back & running strong....
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brushed vs brushless motor's???-tunnel-bridge.jpg  
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Old 01-27-2006, 11:42 AM   #14
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I don't know about back but I made an appearance. Hopefully my GTB will show up today, if so I will stop by monday to try it out.

Mark
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Old 01-27-2006, 11:25 PM   #15
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does anyone know someone with a losi :xx-4we xx-4 g+ or xxx-4gt+
or good 4wd electric buggy that would be interested in a swap for a rtr x-ray xb8 1/8th nitro buggy?
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