Ball Diff vs Gear Diff
#16
Tech Addict
iTrader: (2)

Does anyone have experience with TLR's planetary gear diff on dirt? It seems like that design would have less bind under load (which may be why they've gone away from it on their carpet spec car..), lending itself to better dirt performance. I think the tuneability of different fluid weights would be valuable on dirt.
#17

Switched over to ball diffs on astro, reason being diff access is a complete non-starter on the YZ4 and I wanted the adjustability. Think I barked the rear as I set it too loose, so that feels gritty. But despite that, it makes the car feel very "smooth". Much smoother than the gear diffs. It makes the car feel very light-footed and just sails on astro, no issues whatsoever.
#18
Tech Regular

Ok, i searched and found nothing conclusive.
Gear vs Ball diffs in 2wd, why would a ball diff drive better on dirt? They both allow the 'differential ' in speed to allow cornering, ball diffs shouldn't be slipping-that's what the slipper is for. Gear diffs have resistance to rotation (like a ball diff) by adjusting fluid. So what is the actual 'diff'erence?
Not just 'more side bite' or 'more forward traction'-there must be a reason for the feel differences, so does anyone know?
Back in the day, a gear diff would diff out onto the unloaded wheel in a corner-this has been countered with sealed fluid filled diffs, this is why everyone preferred ball diffs.
What i don't understand is why a ball diff should be preferred on dirt nowadays?
Asking for a friend ;-)
Gear vs Ball diffs in 2wd, why would a ball diff drive better on dirt? They both allow the 'differential ' in speed to allow cornering, ball diffs shouldn't be slipping-that's what the slipper is for. Gear diffs have resistance to rotation (like a ball diff) by adjusting fluid. So what is the actual 'diff'erence?
Not just 'more side bite' or 'more forward traction'-there must be a reason for the feel differences, so does anyone know?
Back in the day, a gear diff would diff out onto the unloaded wheel in a corner-this has been countered with sealed fluid filled diffs, this is why everyone preferred ball diffs.
What i don't understand is why a ball diff should be preferred on dirt nowadays?
Asking for a friend ;-)
Ok, so this goes back to the OP 2yrs ago. Lol.
A ball diff and a gear diff feel different on track and can have benefits on a given surface as a result of their function.
A ball diff and a gear diff have very much the same function off power and we all know that during a bend the outside wheel will need to rotate a quicker speed than the inside. This off power cornering and the cars “rotation” through a bend will be dependent on the viscocity of the oil in the gear diff, and the tightness of the thrust race spring on a ball diff. These can can be tuned accordingly.
The difference in their function comes when they are “on power”. During the bend, both diffs will bind on power BUT the ball diff will bind a great deal more.
The harder the vehicle accelerates the greater the ball diff will bind, effectively preventing the ball diff from a differential action.
The result is the reason that a ball diff is preferable on low grip. As you add throttle mid corner the ball diff binds, prevents a diff-ing action and drives the car forward. This will have the feel of weight shifting to the rear and potentially the loss of on power steering and helps prevent losing rear traction exiting a bend.
Alternatively the gear diff will still have a free (considerably less binding) action no matter how hard you accelerate and this can favour carpet or high grip tracks. Mid corner acceleration will have little effect on steering and the vehicle can turn much more freely. This can help you hold the inside of a sweeper at a greater speed than you could with a ball diff. The common phrase is “greater corner speed”
It should be said, as the OP had commented, the gear diffs action under acceleration of staying free, can be the reason why a vehicle with a gear diff can “diff out” compared to that of a ball diff.
Hope you find this helpful.
Last edited by Piles; 05-02-2019 at 12:43 PM.
#19

Ok, so this goes back to the OP 2yrs ago. Lol.
A ball diff and a gear diff feel different on track and can have benefits on a given surface as a result of their function.
A ball diff and a gear diff have very much the same function off power and we all know that during a bend the outside wheel will need to rotate a quicker speed than the inside. This off power cornering and the cars “rotation” through a bend will be dependent on the viscocity of the oil in the gear diff, and the tightness of the thrust race spring on a ball diff. These can can be tuned accordingly.
The difference in their function comes when they are “on power”. During the bend, both diffs will bind on power BUT the ball diff will bind a great deal more.
The harder the vehicle accelerates the greater the ball diff will bind, effectively preventing the ball diff from a differential action.
The result is the reason that a ball diff is preferable on low grip. As you add throttle mid corner the ball diff binds, prevents a diff-ing action and drives the car forward. This will have the feel of weight shifting to the rear and potentially the loss of on power steering and helps prevent losing rear traction exiting a bend.
Alternatively the gear diff will still have a free (considerably less binding) action no matter how hard you accelerate and this can favour carpet or high grip tracks. Mid corner acceleration will have little effect on steering and the vehicle can turn much more freely. This can help you hold the inside of a sweeper at a greater speed than you could with a ball diff. The common phrase is “greater corner speed”
It should be said, as the OP had commented, the gear diffs action under acceleration of staying free, can be the reason why a vehicle with a gear diff can “diff out” compared to that of a ball diff.
Hope you find this helpful.
#20
Tech Regular

http://astateofrc.com/wp-content/upl...Trish-Neal.mp3
#21

I can 100% relate to what Piles wrote, on astro ball diff wants to either straighten up or drift under power out of the corner. Gear diff hardly changes the steering radius coming out of the corner - as a result of this i find I can get back onto the power with a gear diff much sooner, initially it felt I was behind the car.
#22

You might want to listen to this. Tristram Neal, Schumachers designer and the first manufacturer to put a ball diff in an RC car.
http://astateofrc.com/wp-content/upl...Trish-Neal.mp3
There is no technical reason why ball diffs should start to lock-up or 'diff-out' less as the torque increases than gear diffs. In fact, fluid filled gear diffs have to over-come the friction of the silicon oil, the thickness governing the action.
Ball diffs might be considered adjustable, but in my experience the useful range of this said 'adjustability' is very small. Too little tension on the diff screw and the diff will squeal and lose power. Worse, the diff screw could back up completely! This also damages the balls, flat spotting them. Too tight, the diff won't operate smoothly and the thrust race and/or balls will be damaged. The main and real technical advantage is lightness and cheapness.
All the theory in the world won't change people's hands on experience with either type of diff. Both types can be setup to work brilliantly, but for higher powered applications, geared diffs are preferable.
For electric classes, in the 80's right through til about 10 years ago, ball diffs were king - due to their lower rotating mass. A well maintained and set up ceramic ball diff can be silky smooth and consistent, regardless of temperature - an aspect that can negatively effect fluid filled diffs if race day temps fluctuate appreciably.
In 1/8th Buggy, Torsen diffs could be utilised to good effect on blown out tracks - usually front and/or centre. Too big, clumpy and expensive to use in 1/10th scale though, despite being actual limited slip differentials.
Last edited by Horatio; 05-02-2019 at 03:45 PM. Reason: Reasons....
#23
Tech Addict

On low grip tracks if you put more power down to the outside tire you lose grip, not get more. Think about driving your real car around a dusty corner, you cannot apply more throttle or else you will lose traction and spinout. So when your buggy is searching for traction on a low grip track you want the buggy to be able to diff out more easily so the outside tire does not get overloaded and spin you out.
This is why ball diffs are chosen for low grip tracks. They provide a more linear build up of differential action that is very predictable and helps not disrupt the tires and break traction. A gear diff has a more progressive build up of resistance on throttle which makes it easier to overload the outer tire if used on low grip.
On high grip artificial tracks there is no shortage of traction, the buggy does not benefit from finding more traction and splitting power. Putting power down to both tires while retaining a similar low speed driving demeanor/rotation is more important.
I tried this back to back several times with a 2wd and I found the ball diff was more predictable at low and high throttle, the gear diff was predictable at low speed and looser at higher throttle. In order to get the gear diff to feel similar under heavy throttle I had to soften the oil and then it suffered a lot with over rotation and looseness off throttle or at low speed. For this reason I stand by what Krio said.
This is why ball diffs are chosen for low grip tracks. They provide a more linear build up of differential action that is very predictable and helps not disrupt the tires and break traction. A gear diff has a more progressive build up of resistance on throttle which makes it easier to overload the outer tire if used on low grip.
On high grip artificial tracks there is no shortage of traction, the buggy does not benefit from finding more traction and splitting power. Putting power down to both tires while retaining a similar low speed driving demeanor/rotation is more important.
I tried this back to back several times with a 2wd and I found the ball diff was more predictable at low and high throttle, the gear diff was predictable at low speed and looser at higher throttle. In order to get the gear diff to feel similar under heavy throttle I had to soften the oil and then it suffered a lot with over rotation and looseness off throttle or at low speed. For this reason I stand by what Krio said.
#24

Some subjects survive the test of time better than others. Now that people actually get to choose between ball diff or gear diff as a tuning option, you can see why people will be Re-visiting threads like this one.
A ball diff and a gear diff feel different on track and can have benefits on a given surface as a result of their function.
A ball diff and a gear diff have very much the same function off power.......
This off power cornering and the cars “rotation” through a bend will be dependent on the viscocity of the oil in the gear diff, and the tightness of the thrust race spring on a ball diff. These can can be tuned accordingly.
With gear diffs, the limits are down to whatever range of diff oils the racer has in his/her pit box.
The difference in their function comes when they are “on power”. During the bend, both diffs will bind on power BUT the ball diff will bind a great deal more.
[
[
The harder the vehicle accelerates the greater the ball diff will bind, effectively preventing the ball diff from a differential action.
The result is the reason that a ball diff is preferable on low grip. As you add throttle mid corner the ball diff binds, prevents a diff-ing action and drives the car forward. This will have the feel of weight shifting to the rear and potentially the loss of on power steering and helps prevent losing rear traction exiting a bend.
[
[
Also, a diff that 'binds' - or to put it another way - 'starts to lock up', will tend to break traction on that axle. So in other words, on the rear diff, that would result in on-power over-steer. Or on the front, on-power under-steer.
Alternatively the gear diff will still have a free (considerably less binding) action no matter how hard you accelerate and this can favour carpet or high grip tracks....
Mid corner acceleration will have little effect on steering and the vehicle can turn much more freely. This can help you hold the inside of a sweeper at a greater speed than you could with a ball diff. The common phrase is “greater corner speed”
[
[
It should be said, as the OP had commented, the gear diffs action under acceleration of staying free, can be the reason why a vehicle with a gear diff can “diff out” compared to that of a ball diff.
With a gear diff, diff out can be tackled by going up in weight with the diff fluid.
With 3 diff cars, 4WD can very quickly become 1WD! Lol. That's why Torsen diffs were desirable on the centre diff on really loose, dusty tracks in 1/8th.
As with most things, it's all about finding the right balance between being able to put the hammer down in a straight line without losing power to wheel spin, whilst having enough differential action to negotiate corners well enough to get good lap times.
Hope you find this helpful.
#25

@trf211
You and Krio are right. With gear diffs, when they are diffing out, the gears have to shear the viscous fluid (silicon diff oil) inside the diff case, thus will still put some torque to the weighted wheel - even if the un-weighted wheel is spinning. The thicker the oil, the more torque the weighted wheel/s is going to get.
Like you say, on very dusty, slippery tracks, I could understand why some might find the ball diff easier to drive.
It's all down to driving style and good setup to suit said driving style.
You and Krio are right. With gear diffs, when they are diffing out, the gears have to shear the viscous fluid (silicon diff oil) inside the diff case, thus will still put some torque to the weighted wheel - even if the un-weighted wheel is spinning. The thicker the oil, the more torque the weighted wheel/s is going to get.
Like you say, on very dusty, slippery tracks, I could understand why some might find the ball diff easier to drive.
It's all down to driving style and good setup to suit said driving style.
#26

Very simple test since some of you can't seem to understand how ball diffs and gear diffs perform under load.
Take a car with a ball diff hold one of the drive wheels and punch the throttle. Make note of how much the force exerted on the tire in your hand.
Do the same test with a gear diff equipped car.
A gear diff transfers less torque as the differential action becomes greater. This is because the fluid can't fill back in between the gear teeth as the gears start spinning faster and faster.
A ball diff has a set resistance to differential action, and that resistance to differential action goes up as differential action increases, basically acting more and more like a solid axle. A ball diff doesn't experience less resistance to differential action, physics won't let that happen.
Take a car with a ball diff hold one of the drive wheels and punch the throttle. Make note of how much the force exerted on the tire in your hand.
Do the same test with a gear diff equipped car.
A gear diff transfers less torque as the differential action becomes greater. This is because the fluid can't fill back in between the gear teeth as the gears start spinning faster and faster.
A ball diff has a set resistance to differential action, and that resistance to differential action goes up as differential action increases, basically acting more and more like a solid axle. A ball diff doesn't experience less resistance to differential action, physics won't let that happen.
#27

Do the same test with a gear diff equipped car.
Next up, a monster truck. This rear diff has just 50,000 weight oil to prevent diffing out on obstacles and to ensure good wheelies. With a gloved hand, it required significantly more force to hold the wheel, as the diff has to overcome the shear forces of the silicone 50,000wt oil. With the diff filled with Mugen Super Grease (black) it virtually locks the diff completely.
A gear diff transfers less torque as the differential action becomes greater. This is because the fluid can't fill back in between the gear teeth as the gears start spinning faster and faster.
A ball diff has a set resistance to differential action,
and that resistance to differential action goes up as differential action increases, basically acting more and more like a solid axle.
A ball diff doesn't experience less resistance to differential action, physics won't let that happen.
First, for clarity, resistance to differential action can be expressed as limiting slip. Under load, compare the function of a healthy ball diff with a high volume gear diff packed with 100,000wt oil.
Which of the 2 is going to experience 'less resistance to differential action'?
Answer: Ball Diff.
Which of the 2 is going to have the greatest limited slip?
Answer: Gear Diff (with 100,000wt oil)
It's all relative.
Now consider Torsen diffs. When these start to 'diff-out', they mechically and progressively start to lock themselves. So, when the going is good, they act like a gear diff with very light fluid. But when a wheel starts to slip, the diff behaves like it has a very thick fluid. Despite the apparent 'best of both worlds' functionality, for driveability, Torsen diffs were not desirable on the rear of the car - only the centre and front. They cost about $200 A piece, so on a buggy that's a $400 investment 8/ No wonder they aren't common place. Some people swear by them though - it's all a matter of $$, taste and driving style.
#28
Tech Initiate

The oil can't really be evacuated from between the gears unless you don't put enough oil in, or the diff casing has a lot of air space for the oil to run off into. The centrifugal force of the diff casing spinning should ensure that the gear teeth remain submerged with oil so it doesn't revert to being an 'air filled gear diff'. I guess if you want to avoid that you can 100% fill the diff casing with oil as long as leaking isn't a problem.
#29

#30

The resistance is set by the diff screw, but the smooth, shiny, round diff balls are still very free to roll. They have nominal friction, the same as balls inside a ballrace would have, so as long as the input torque is greater than this resistance, the diff spins (diffs out). In other words, the only torque being supplied to the captive wheel would be from nominal friction from within the ball diff itself, marginally controlled by how the user has set the diff screw.
The diff gear transmits the driving force into the balls and the balls roll along the rings. The increase in resistance comes from the fact that the balls do not roll along the diff gear, but rather slide against it. The more differential action there is, the more resistance there is because the balls are fighting against the diff gear, not the diff rings.
Your ball race analogy is erroneous because in a typical bearing the force is coming from one of the races, whereas in a ball diff the forces are coming from the "cage".
Newton's third law of motion proves that a ball diff resists differential action as differential action increases.