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Speaking of innovation, why no one make this suspension in offroad RC?

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Speaking of innovation, why no one make this suspension in offroad RC?

Old 03-13-2017, 11:08 PM
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Default Speaking of innovation, why no one make this suspension in offroad RC?

Speaking of innovation, why no one make this suspension in offroad RC?-serpent-400030-11.jpg
This is the suspension in serpent 4x touring car, completely different from anything in the market.

Basically, one shock absorber for ride height, and one/two shock absorber for car roll.
It's been the suspension of choice in Formula 1 cars (real ones), because the massive aerodynamic downforce, they need the suspension to be extremely hard to maintain the ride height, so the chassis won't scratch the ground at high speed. But they also need to let the car roll in the corner for mechanical grip.

So, they basically made 2 shock/spring system into the car, one for ride height, one for roll.

Same thing should work really well for offroad cars, one shock to handle jumps, one shock to handle cornering.

You can set ride height shock really hard, to handle all the harsh landings, and rolling shock soft to handle the rough terrain. (No need to compromise front-rear roll balance for jumps.)

It would require a complete redesign of the suspension system, and the setup will start from nothing. But, after AE XB4, some fresh blood would be really useful?

Update: here's a great video about how serpent 4x suspension works:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a76T7YMi_7U

Last edited by nicholasxuu; 03-14-2017 at 05:16 PM. Reason: added video
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Old 03-14-2017, 05:23 AM
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being the devils advocate here, but i would think it hasn't been adapted for the same reason that the system hasn't been adopted in full scale off-road cars... complexity and cost.

on another tangent off-road buggies, etc have used some type of inboard suspension in the past. most have come with some performance drawback, and have been fragile as glass.
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Old 03-14-2017, 05:27 AM
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Because in Offroad Simple is better! Look at all the other ideas that were floated around, and it seems the basic layout is always here to stay. Look at the Tenth Tech Predators, they were cooler than heck, but broke a lot too! Hot Shot comes to mind too, single shock front and rear.

It has to be easy to tune without a masters in engineering.

Here is a pic of a Truck someone tried to reinvent the front suspension on, Just to give an idea of complexity.
Attached Thumbnails Speaking of innovation, why no one make this suspension in offroad RC?-vxi.jpg  
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Old 03-14-2017, 07:45 AM
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Y'all don't remember the Losi JRX-2 5-link rear suspension, do ya'. It worked really well, but was sometimes hard to get enough steering out of the car. Eventually it was changed out for a long chassis (ST length, at the time) and a regular arm suspension.

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Old 03-14-2017, 08:13 AM
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inboard suspension has been done before.
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Old 03-14-2017, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by 1/8 IC Fan View Post
Here is a pic of a Truck someone tried to reinvent the front suspension on, Just to give an idea of complexity.
rube goldberg called, wanted it back.
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Old 03-14-2017, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by 1/8 IC Fan View Post
Because in Offroad Simple is better! Look at all the other ideas that were floated around, and it seems the basic layout is always here to stay. Look at the Tenth Tech Predators, they were cooler than heck, but broke a lot too! Hot Shot comes to mind too, single shock front and rear.

It has to be easy to tune without a masters in engineering.

Here is a pic of a Truck someone tried to reinvent the front suspension on, Just to give an idea of complexity.
Originally Posted by Coke in a can View Post
inboard suspension has been done before.
As stated Tenth tech Predator
Attached Thumbnails Speaking of innovation, why no one make this suspension in offroad RC?-ttech-predator_x-10_3.jpg   Speaking of innovation, why no one make this suspension in offroad RC?-ttech-predator_x-10_2.jpg  
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Old 03-14-2017, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Davidka View Post
Y'all don't remember the Losi JRX-2 5-link rear suspension, do ya'. It worked really well, but was sometimes hard to get enough steering out of the car. Eventually it was changed out for a long chassis (ST length, at the time) and a regular arm suspension.
I bought one new in 1988 and still run it. That's my favorite car series of all time. On loose, low grip, rough tracks, that car is amazing. You can drive them on dusty outdoor tracks where others are fighting for any grip and it can just drift around those corners like nothing else in 2wd. As you've pointed out, turning can be difficult. Specifically turning while on power. The back end squats down, it lifts the inside front tire, and continues going straight. That back end just doesn't like to let go. It's a point and shoot car. Slam on the brakes, lock the rear end up, and slide it around to line the nose up before getting back on it again. If you set that car up to have good on power corner exit, it's crap everywhere else. The H-arm conversion made it feel like an entirely different vehicle.
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Old 03-14-2017, 09:37 AM
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I think there are two main reasons:
1. The amount of droop and flexion of the suspension in off road would require the multi-damper system to take up a lot of space on the chassis. Just compare touring car conventional dampers to off-road dampers in size. With the Serpent system it is likely that there would be an even larger difference in size.

2. In off-road, the amount of linkages has to be kept to a minimum due to the loads placed upon them at widely varying angles. Play/slack creeps in very quickly.

Having said all that, I would probably be the first one on my block to have one!
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Old 03-14-2017, 09:54 AM
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So what advantage are you looking to gain from that?

On road I can understand, where our cars are pulling many g in the corners. Off road? Not so much.
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Old 03-14-2017, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by 1/8 IC Fan View Post
Because in Offroad Simple is better! Look at all the other ideas that were floated around, and it seems the basic layout is always here to stay. Look at the Tenth Tech Predators, they were cooler than heck, but broke a lot too! Hot Shot comes to mind too, single shock front and rear.

It has to be easy to tune without a masters in engineering.

Here is a pic of a Truck someone tried to reinvent the front suspension on, Just to give an idea of complexity.
Agree on KISS (keep it simple stupid), but it's a hobby, lacking fun ideas and innovations will easily kill it. I, for one, lost interest in the past 2 years because there's nothing innovative.

RC car started as a "simulation" test tool.

Originally Posted by Davidka View Post
Y'all don't remember the Losi JRX-2 5-link rear suspension, do ya'. It worked really well, but was sometimes hard to get enough steering out of the car. Eventually it was changed out for a long chassis (ST length, at the time) and a regular arm suspension.

That's multi link suspension, used in modern cars a lot, due to cost and space restriction (cheaper and less space needed than double wishbone, for real cars). RC doesn't need it, because molded composite arms is working better.
If I have to DIY a car, I may end up using multi links suspension, much easier than 3D printing arms.

Originally Posted by Coke in a can View Post
inboard suspension has been done before.
different concept, inboard shock is used to lower center of gravity and improve exposed suspension's aerodynamics. Most RC implementation end up raising CoG, and aerodynamic is not important for scaled cars.
If you read the thread, I was talking about another type of suspension.

Originally Posted by 4wdfull View Post
I think there are two main reasons:
1. The amount of droop and flexion of the suspension in off road would require the multi-damper system to take up a lot of space on the chassis. Just compare touring car conventional dampers to off-road dampers in size. With the Serpent system it is likely that there would be an even larger difference in size.

2. In off-road, the amount of linkages has to be kept to a minimum due to the loads placed upon them at widely varying angles. Play/slack creeps in very quickly.

Having said all that, I would probably be the first one on my block to have one!
How to fit stuff into a good package, it's a great challenge for designers and engineers. Comparing with copying each other's design these days.
with shorty packs used these days, there's plenty of space to do something new.
even I can think of a solution to use bigger shocks there.

Originally Posted by Nerobro View Post
So what advantage are you looking to gain from that?

On road I can understand, where our cars are pulling many g in the corners. Off road? Not so much.
1. lots of offroad rc these days are basically onroad with jumps.
2. if you design the setup yourself, how often do you try to compromise corner (soft damping + low ride height) and jumps (the opposite). Balancing front and rear rolling character, and need to compromise because of jumps. This type of suspension separate it out, one shock for jumps and one shock for cornering.

* actually onroad use it differently, they use soft "jump shock" to handle bumpy tracks, and hard "cornering shock" to keep car responsive in the corners.
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Old 03-14-2017, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by nicholasxuu View Post

* actually onroad use it differently, they use soft "jump shock" to handle bumpy tracks, and hard "cornering shock" to keep car responsive in the corners.
What you are referring to is that they control suspension heave in both spring rate and damping independently from roll spring rate and damping.
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Old 03-14-2017, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by nicholasxuu View Post
Agree on KISS (keep it simple stupid), but it's a hobby, lacking fun ideas and innovations will easily kill it. I, for one, lost interest in the past 2 years because there's nothing innovative.
On the contrary, innovation (and cost) left unchecked is always the thing that kills off racing classes. At the core of the hobby is the racing experience, not the toy itself.
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Old 03-14-2017, 12:16 PM
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2wd buggy design has changed more in the past 5 years than it had in the previous 25.
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Old 03-14-2017, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Davidka View Post
On the contrary, innovation (and cost) left unchecked is always the thing that kills off racing classes. At the core of the hobby is the racing experience, not the toy itself.
Yes this is very true...

look they had the MT Class, that turned into Truggy and then MT Died. And MT was way more of a fun run what you brung class, and Truggy (which I race) is quiet serious in comparison.

Look at where the F1 class is now here in the US, we had 3racings crazy full suspension car, the Exotek front end etc. The class is just about on its last leg again.

- After a while you get to a point to where the car works great in its layout, and from there you just use adjustments and such to tune it. And any forward progress is only made is small strides from there. Look how long it took for mid motor layouts to make a comeback!

If you make it too complex you will drive people away, as they will get caught in wanting to buy the newest car etc, then cant drive it. Look at the Team Magic M1B.

Its a fine line between development and keeping a class alive. Look at 4wd Buggy, that class almost died out, and now we have a resurgence in ST, which is awesome, given that in my opinion its the best class to develope as a driver. And even in ST, look at the rediculous QD's Losi and AE had for the Rear Tires!!! Those are long gone.

And take it with a grain of salt, the new 2wd buggies are basically the Associated Worlds car (Australia / Detroit) front end running a Tekin or similar Midmotor conversion as we used to in the 90's. Just refined thats all.

Innovation and outside thinking are all there look at the Ryuz FF buggy, and the ORB racing buggy.
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Last edited by 1/8 IC Fan; 03-14-2017 at 03:43 PM.
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