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Old 12-17-2005, 08:54 PM   #46
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We tried spec classes a few years back, it never took off. Turns out most people want some kind of advantage, i.e., more batteries, hotter motors, tires and trick parts to have some advantage for the big club race wins. It is a great idea on paper, but it goes against the grain, just watch when a new class comes out how many racers go to it for some wins before the best drivers get into the new class.

I think 4w is a ton of fun and WAY cheaper then 1/8th scale will ever be, as well as faster too! A $200 car is cheap and a $500 car is a better one, no matter how you slice it in any class. That isn't to say a cheap car can't win, if there are not alot of good drivers around almost anything can win. When the talent shows up get out the good stuff.

Anyone racing any class seriously will spend the money it takes to have the best equipment, price is not the issue for most racers. If it was they would not own 3 or 4 cars? People who are truly worried about price have one car.

Of course people who can't afford to race but do anyway will always find that special 1984 4wd car RTR for $31 with 17 1200mah nicad packs and a wiper speedo.

I think what some are turned off about in 4wd is the added maintenance, not the $150 more then a 2wd. But, for the rush of 4wd performance, it's worth it to me! Brushless will be the hot ticket in 4w soon!!!

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Old 12-19-2005, 03:12 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IMPACTPLAYR
Cain / Party_wagon-- you guys don't really get it do you... The upfront costs of a $300+ dollar buggy turns people away, not to mention you wanna talk brushless, that's anothe $250-300, radio.... well I just put all this expensive crap in my car so I should at least get a decent radio $250.... $800-850 and I aint even got batteries...holy $#!t!!!

The Tamiya spec classes run on 540 silvercan motors, not stock or 19T... you can throw the best batteries in the world at them unless you have extra cells you ain't going any faster!!! The cars come RTR for $175 or as a kit with esc and battery for $110!! you can get people in the door with everything they need to race for under $225.... hell I can get my wife, 2 kids, and myself all racing for less than what you have in your 1 buggy!!! And don't even get me started on the BJ4..... I'll have less in my 1/8th scale buggy than that!!!!
Hey Bro I don't know what Brushless system you're buying but 250-300.....dude the 5800 from novak on EBay is going for 150...250 for a good radio????? Wow I know inflation is bad on the East Coast but you can get a decent 27Mhz syth radio for around 150 also........so far the ONLY really high priced 4WD I've seen is the Concept BJ4....I'm coming from a sport that makes R/C seem like ice fishing when it comes to cost...Paintball...I had 3200 in gear as a tourny player and now that I race....man I should have quit PB YEARS AGO....I guess what I'm trying to say is people are going to spend money on what they want too, and are capable to buy. If the case was different the prices would drop because nobody was buying the product. Look at 1/18th scale tourning....I'm getting HPI RS4 kits for 45-60 bucks and RTR kits for 75-90...The cost for certain hobbies is always going to be there..Paintball was the same way people would buy the most expensive because because they thought it would make them better. I see that in R/C'n A LOT. Like Truggies...I still don't see how they are Monster Trucks. I would LOVE to see 4wd elect Buggies make a comeback here in Wisco...
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Old 12-19-2005, 04:27 AM   #48
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Phew... I'm glad there also some people who like 4wd buggies and 19T motors! . In fact, I'm using a 19T epic on my xxx-4 buggy. Keep it up guys!
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Old 12-19-2005, 05:52 AM   #49
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My Twin Brother and I elected to buy the Novak GTB Brushless with velociti 6.5R motor this past week..... Not good.... My Brothers was an out of box failed unit!!! OUCH!!! As for mine, at the end of the 5 min heat, my motor would go into thermal protection. I think it's PFM that it always ocurred at the end of the heat. I mean I would pull my carr off the track and the motor stopped working. I'd temp the motor (180 degrees) as soon as the motor fell below 180, it would work again. HMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!NOVAK, Please call, I'd like to talk to you!!!
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Old 12-19-2005, 09:55 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WisRacr1
Hey Bro I don't know what Brushless system you're buying but 250-300.....dude the 5800 from novak on EBay is going for 150...250 for a good radio????? Wow I know inflation is bad on the East Coast but you can get a decent 27Mhz syth radio for around 150 also........so far the ONLY really high priced 4WD I've seen is the Concept BJ4....


....The cost for certain hobbies is always going to be there..Paintball was the same way people would buy the most expensive because because they thought it would make them better. I see that in R/C'n A LOT. Like Truggies...I still don't see how they are Monster Trucks. I would LOVE to see 4wd elect Buggies make a comeback here in Wisco...

Well I look at the price is in the hobby shop, because that is hopefully where most people get their racing equiptment....screw e-bay to hell!!! I think anybody who buys all of their equiptment on e-bay shouldn't be allowed to race...LOL well I do know they will be cursed with not having anywhere to race!! Why... do you think that few bucks you pay to race keeps the track open..... if you do you must be the absolute biggest idiot to ever live and don't deserve to breathe....

Most first time racers get their stuff in the hobbyshop, why cause it's almost always and impulse buy.... racing looks cool and I wanna try...

The problem is most guys like yourself don't think about the guy that comes in with his 2 kids to race and each one wants to get in on the fun.... What about the 13 year old kid who mows lawns all year to buy his fvirst hobbygrade RC to race... or the 70 year old grandfather who lives on his social security but wants to find something he can do with his grandchild on Saturday afternoon.... or the poor family down the road who wanna keep their kids away from drugs and other illegal activities??? these people can't afford the high priced racing gear you can and may not have access to a computer..... are you gonna let them borrow your back-up gear every week??? I don't think so.... me personally if I had it I'd give it to them, but I don't race at every track and I can't afford it, but if I could..... but having the access to the low priced spec gear at the track, that they will definately be able to at least compete with gives these people access, and remember those 8-15 year old kids will be 16-18 someday and they will be making better money their selves, so eventually there will be funds available for them to step up, or they can slowly buy the higher end equiptment that we deal with and use it on their spec cars until they can afford the chassis and batteries and finally step up... with the racing knowledge and skill that it will take to compete....

So go ahead and be greedy and take the "if you can't afford to keep up then go away" attitude so many of us have in this and almost every competetive hobby.....

You obviously haven't been to a track that has a good spec program and seen the kids who race it watch the "big boys" run and admire them thinking "I wanna be there someday".... but still they go out and race and be happy with their slow, poor handling cars.... laughing and giggling, just happy to be able to join in on the fun.....


If you don't get it... probably you never will..... I feel sorry for you
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Old 12-19-2005, 10:04 AM   #51
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impact: very well said....

Every track should have a SPEC type program......
(some of the best racing I have ever seen was in spec classes)

These 8-15 year olds are the future of RC......
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Old 12-19-2005, 10:26 AM   #52
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I think that the 19T spec class would be an excellent idea. The motors would last a long time, and be cheap. I did see some rc10 b4 buggies running 19T motors and they were quite fast.
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Old 12-19-2005, 10:45 AM   #53
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Spec 19T is for the guys that can afford stock racing and have the skill....

I'm talking Tamiya spec, it's not for everybody.... but you can get alot of people in with it.... You'd be suprised just how much fun this slower class would be... Let me pull up the rules and maybe it will help a few understand....
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Old 12-19-2005, 11:10 AM   #54
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Default here's the basic Tamiya spec rules

Here are the rules pertaining to TL-01 spec classes (I cut out almost everything that would be specific to the on-road cars....)


All Vehicles
1. Tamiya parts only. No parts from other manufactures unless specified here.

2. Any manufacturer’s electronic speed control, radio equipment, servo saver, antenna, antenna mount, pinion and spur gears, spur gear adapter, ball bearing, tire inserts are allowed in all classes.

3. A 27 MHz or 75 MHz radio system must be used. A minimum of 2 frequencies is required for use at the events. Spektrum systems are also allowed.

4. The batteries that are allowed for the 2006 season are: Sanyo NI-CD 2400, Sanyo NI-MH HV 3000, 3300 & 3600, Panasonic 3000 Ultra Metal Hydride, Panasonic 3000 Stock Metal Hydride, GP (Gold Peak) 3300 & 3700, Intellect Batteries 3600, 3800 and LRP 3700, EPIC 3800. LIPO batteries are not legal at this time. Sport packs that are readily available at hobby stores are legal as long as they are assembled from the general hobby industry i.e. Orion, Peak, Reedy, Duratrax, Dynamite, Trinity and Hobbico. Batteries that are purchased direct from Sanyo, Panasonic or Gold Peak that have no hobby industry branding are not legal. These batteries include those that are used in power tools and have a solid colored shrink-wrapping to them. Racers that still own batteries such as the Sanyo NI-CD 2000, 1400, 1700 or 1200 are allowed as long as they have the original hobby industry shrink wrap.

5. Any Tamiya Hop-Op Option and spare part is allowed as long as it is used in the way it was designed, and on the vehicle it was designed for. it is strictly forbidden to cut, mill or lighten the chassis. It is strictly forbidden to re-engineer or modify the cars in any way other than with Tamiya Hop-Ups. (This applies to all classes)

6. All bodies must be painted and must be cut along the trim lines. No extra vents or holes may be added to the body.

8. Any motor connector or direct hard wiring to the motor is allowed.

9. Any battery connector or direct hard wiring to the battery is allowed.

10. Tire conditioners are allowed on rubber tires in all classes, but may be restricted at certain venues. (some TCS host sites do not allow additives due to the track being indoors and the lack of ventilation)

11. Any modification not called out specifically in these rules is not legal.

12. All bodies must use the wings that are supplied in the kit. Mixing and matching wings between different bodies is not allowed.

13. Lightweight screws that are made of aluminum, steel or Titanium that are made by other manufactures is allowed. i.e. Any screw is legal.

14. The use of thin shims (available at most hobby stores and now made available by Tamiya) to space out the slop or play in suspension arms, steering bell-cranks and wheel axles is now permitted in all vehicles except in the spec class. Shimming the aforementioned components of the car in a way that alters the geometry of the car or its basic geometry design is not legal.

15. The use of O-Rings on shock ball ends and camber/steering links is allowed.

17. If a driver finds a loophole within the rules, that exploitation will be deemed illegal.

TL-01 spec rules (since the current 4wd off-road buggies are based upon these Tamiya chassis'

1. Chassis allowed: All TL01, TL-01 LA and TT-01 chassis kits.

2. The Only Hop-Ups allowed are:
a. Tamiya plastic oil-filled shocks
b. Ball bearings
c. TL-01 Turnbuckle steering tie rod set
d. TL-01 adjustable arm set . TT-01 adjustable arm set , TT-01 Turnbuckle steering tie-rod set

3. The Kit type closed-end-bell, silver can motor (Mabuchi/Johnson) is the only motor allowed for this class.

4. The stock size pinion is the only gear allowed for both chassis types.

5. You must run kit type tires

6. All Tamiya Spec Class cars must use stock wheels and tires.

7. Any tire insert may be used.

8. New for 2006: The aluminum/carbon center prop shafts are now allowed for the TT-01 and TL-01 based chassis



Also I just found 5 tamiya 4wd off-road TT-01 and TL-01 based kits that would be legal... all come with oil filled shocks and 2 come with a Tamiya esc....ranging from $79.99 to $105.99!! and 2 RTR's ranging from $161.99 to $169.99!!

That would get the LHS prices from between $80 and $125 for a kit and $165 to $180 for the RTRs....

Tell me that kids wouldn't dig this buggy, it looks pretty cool!!!

http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXJJA4&P=0
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Old 12-22-2005, 05:46 AM   #55
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yeah, spec cars are great for what they are....

But when i started this thread, I'm talking about the fastest, funest class available! I also tried to point out that I thought 19t would help get people in, but that only works when you have enough cars to split the classes. What you MUST do to get the car counts up is make sure not to down grade any motor or car in the class. Support everyone and make sure that they are having as much fun running 4wheelers as you are!
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Old 12-22-2005, 06:57 AM   #56
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I think it should be open chassis wise, but if you are planning to see the class grow, you really need an entry point for newbies. If you had say default mod in the touring classes, how many newbies would we have seen when the touring craze really took off? Heck, mod still scares guys who have been in the hobby quite sometime, which probably explains why 19T in general is popular as its faster than stock, but not full mod.

What really helped was an entry point for newer drivers.

With other classes, you have that. If we are going to rely on drivers who already have experience in another mod class to come in 4wd we are not going to really see any growth.

As an argument I have seen from alot of drivers is "Oh, I need to buy more front tires and I already run X amount of classes to plunk down that much on a wheeler in a class that isn't big". To me, with that perspective, real sizable growth is coming to come from the newbie.

Breakage is the thing that frustrates most newbies, and mod speeds plus a 4wd combined with a newbie is a no-no.

I say if your track has people willing to go to a 19T motor class (I don't believe in specing the chassis) I would say give it a shot and go from there.

Worse thing that could happen is you are stuck with a 19T motor if guys decide to just do mod.
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Old 12-22-2005, 08:13 AM   #57
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I totally agree. My point is, however, until you get enough cars to split the classes, make sure that everyone is comforteable and welcome in the open class. Don't discourage anyone for running their 19t to get better. If it is fun, they will stay! Even if they break a few parts from the learning curve!
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Old 12-22-2005, 08:25 AM   #58
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agreed!
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Old 12-22-2005, 08:31 AM   #59
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I tried to run the XX4 last night. Unfortunately, a car with that's been sitting that long and is that old with a considerable amount of use on it has some week points. And I found them all last night. The thing that killed the night for the 4wd was the one belt I didn't replace, the center belt, snapped after my 9th lap on the track. But until than, this car is FAST. I could just rebuild this car with all new suspension and drive train parts but I went ahead and got a brand new kit and will build that up during my time off for Xmas. There's a bunch of guys who are really interested in getting the class together and most are just waiting on their cars to come in. It's going to be awesome to get a full class of these out on the track.
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Old 12-22-2005, 08:37 AM   #60
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The X-5 conversion is really nice if you have a doner XX-4 to use. Heck I loved the truck body the XX-4 had at one time, was fun.
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