If "stock" were a spec class, what parts would you specify?
01-05-2016, 12:49 PM
#106
A reason we're always having these conversations is because not only is 17.5 borderline too fast, mod is also. We're at a point where many skilled racers just don't want to drive something with that much power because we know the quality of the racing experience will drop.
I think stock is good this way. More racers are collecting at and deciding on a class to run together. As we've seen throughout this hobby's history, when class count gets out of hand, participation drops.
01-05-2016, 12:51 PM
#107
Super Moderator
iTrader: (31)
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: RIP 'Chopper', 4/18/13 miss you bud:(
Posts: 15,482
Trader Rating: 31 (100%+)
It looks like they are pushing the better kits (B5M lite, YZ2, Serpent, etc) but trying to keep them box stock if you read it really closely. I would be interested in seeing if suspension tuning is allowed, although most kits these days come with a decent setup out of the box.
You know better than that. They're simply trying stop people from thinking/buying a bunch of high dollar hop up parts that they really don't need.
01-05-2016, 12:54 PM
#108
But overall today's "Stock" 17.5 is much faster than what we ran back in the day, right? A ROAR 24deg motor on a 1200 Sc/SCR wouldn't hold a candle to what we run in Stock now. I think new people would be better off with a slower Stock class than the current 17.5 we have.
01-05-2016, 01:02 PM
#109
I asked the questions as I would consider the possibility of using the idea of the rules at my track. Would I really disqualify a beginning racer for wanting to buy a different spring rate (correct oem) to tune/learn and grow with the hobby? Is the line is at aftermarket parts? Okay I can understand that. Is it at oem model intended parts... okay I can understand that. Is it literally box stock for a skill level that should be beyond springs and oil? That's where I'm having trouble.
01-05-2016, 01:03 PM
#110
Super Moderator
iTrader: (31)
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: RIP 'Chopper', 4/18/13 miss you bud:(
Posts: 15,482
Trader Rating: 31 (100%+)
Pro drivers are incentivized by bigger earnings at higher levels.
A reason we're always having these conversations is because not only is 17.5 borderline too fast, mod is also. We're at a point where many skilled racers just don't want to drive something with that much power because we know the quality of the racing experience will drop.
I think stock is good this way. More racers are collecting at and deciding on a class to run together. As we've seen throughout this hobby's history, when class count gets out of hand, participation drops.
A reason we're always having these conversations is because not only is 17.5 borderline too fast, mod is also. We're at a point where many skilled racers just don't want to drive something with that much power because we know the quality of the racing experience will drop.
I think stock is good this way. More racers are collecting at and deciding on a class to run together. As we've seen throughout this hobby's history, when class count gets out of hand, participation drops.
I've made the "participation trophy" comment in the past and some say "Oh,I don't need to win, but it would be nice to have the chance." I say you've got the same chance as everyone else, you need to realize you simply might not be good enough to win, ever. Deal with it.
I know, I'm crazy
01-05-2016, 01:09 PM
#111
Super Moderator
iTrader: (31)
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: RIP 'Chopper', 4/18/13 miss you bud:(
Posts: 15,482
Trader Rating: 31 (100%+)
I asked the questions as I would consider the possibility of using the idea of the rules at my track. Would I really disqualify a beginning racer for wanting to buy a different spring rate (correct oem) to tune/learn and grow with the hobby? Is the line is at aftermarket parts? Okay I can understand that. Is it at oem model intended parts... okay I can understand that. Is it literally box stock for a skill level that should be beyond springs and oil? That's where I'm having trouble.
I've never seen true "spec" classes work for anything other than the truly Novice group.
Should you, me, or Randy Pike ever run a "spec" class like his track has? No, we'll find stuff or know stuff that will make it unfair and discourage new people.
01-05-2016, 01:10 PM
#112
Tech Addict
iTrader: (10)
I have often thought a spec class would be good but it is very hard in 1/10th off road buggy with so many things to regulate an out of the box class works, I also would think that running a 21.5 might not be a bad idea in a spec class that would slow it down a bit more, big trouble there is building the jumps on the track. would they have to single single single the triple that stocks double triple lol.
01-05-2016, 01:17 PM
#113
Super Moderator
iTrader: (31)
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: RIP 'Chopper', 4/18/13 miss you bud:(
Posts: 15,482
Trader Rating: 31 (100%+)
I get what you're saying but I think if we look at the industry as a whole, which is what's needed, it would all even out regardless of the surface. It kind of has now....right? Carpet or Clay we all seem to see the same issues....?
01-05-2016, 01:21 PM
#114
01-05-2016, 01:26 PM
#115
Super Moderator
iTrader: (31)
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: RIP 'Chopper', 4/18/13 miss you bud:(
Posts: 15,482
Trader Rating: 31 (100%+)
01-05-2016, 01:52 PM
#116
That's not what I was getting at, at all. I was merely pointing out that when the number of choices gets to be too many, the classes dilute and interest drops. Before long it's a handful of guys with $2k touring cars wondering where everyone else went.
01-05-2016, 02:23 PM
#117
Do they tell racers in this class to put the rear spring on the front, and the front spring on the rear if they need more steering? If the kit includes tires must they race on that tread pattern only? What happens if the kit doesn't include tires? I am trying to understand the thinking behind this? Are they only pushing RTRs? Kits only?
When do they start to learn to tune on the car because they are already out of novice and sportsman?
ps: maybe I am reading "kit" instead of "oem" in places????
When do they start to learn to tune on the car because they are already out of novice and sportsman?
ps: maybe I am reading "kit" instead of "oem" in places????
Tires are open, springs are open. It's attempting to keep the $$ out of the class. No pucks, no lockouts, no aftermarket transmission cases, no super lightweight parts, etc.
IF the part on the car didn't come in some "kit" version of the car, it's not allowed.
Ie; B5m, B5m Lite, B5m Champion Edition.
01-05-2016, 02:27 PM
#118
But overall today's "Stock" 17.5 is much faster than what we ran back in the day, right? A ROAR 24deg motor on a 1200 Sc/SCR wouldn't hold a candle to what we run in Stock now. I think new people would be better off with a slower Stock class than the current 17.5 we have.
True, but why are we focused only on the motor when you clearly point out the batteries are so good now? This is part of my point, there is no magic answer.
I think #1 and #3 go together. Stock/Spec racing has and will always be a wallet race at the UPPER level. When it's the best of the best as far as skill, what else is left to determine the winner.....the latest and greatest "go fast" part. It's always been that way, and won't change IMO. At the club level, sadly it's just the mindset of people who don't know any better and think they need to spend the money to win.
#2...I don't know how to fix that sadly, because it is an issue.
Not true. Simply limit the charger they're allowed to use if you feel the need to police this part. They simply can't use anything more than an 80 watt charger. If you felt the need.
That raises a different question. Who can race where? I'm top of the B main or back of the A at best in Mod at my track. In Stock I'm top 3 on a regular basis. Should I not be allowed to run Stock? Pro drivers make the obvious choice and do the right thing, most of the time. But at the club level, who decides where a person should spend their time and MONEY as a hobby...?
True, but why are we focused only on the motor when you clearly point out the batteries are so good now? This is part of my point, there is no magic answer.
I think #1 and #3 go together. Stock/Spec racing has and will always be a wallet race at the UPPER level. When it's the best of the best as far as skill, what else is left to determine the winner.....the latest and greatest "go fast" part. It's always been that way, and won't change IMO. At the club level, sadly it's just the mindset of people who don't know any better and think they need to spend the money to win.
#2...I don't know how to fix that sadly, because it is an issue.
Not true. Simply limit the charger they're allowed to use if you feel the need to police this part. They simply can't use anything more than an 80 watt charger. If you felt the need.
That raises a different question. Who can race where? I'm top of the B main or back of the A at best in Mod at my track. In Stock I'm top 3 on a regular basis. Should I not be allowed to run Stock? Pro drivers make the obvious choice and do the right thing, most of the time. But at the club level, who decides where a person should spend their time and MONEY as a hobby...?
01-05-2016, 02:28 PM
#119
It looks like they are pushing the better kits (B5M lite, YZ2, Serpent, etc) but trying to keep them box stock if you read it really closely. I would be interested in seeing if suspension tuning is allowed, although most kits these days come with a decent setup out of the box.
01-05-2016, 02:33 PM
#120
Hard to say..maybe. If you had this class at your track and a "new" guy asked if he could run Yokomo green springs on his B5m as a tuning option. He probably doesn't belong in that class. IMO
I've never seen true "spec" classes work for anything other than the truly Novice group.
Should you, me, or Randy Pike ever run a "spec" class like his track has? No, we'll find stuff or know stuff that will make it unfair and discourage new people.
I've never seen true "spec" classes work for anything other than the truly Novice group.
Should you, me, or Randy Pike ever run a "spec" class like his track has? No, we'll find stuff or know stuff that will make it unfair and discourage new people.
Point that evening was driver and car setup are 98% of the equation, horse power is only about 2%.
Hero lap on our current layout is a TLR 3.0 mod buggy with a 21.2. Box Stock 2wd buggy is a Yokomo Yz2 with the Tekin Gen1 17.5 running a 22.1. Yes those are both flyers but you see my point.
People want a fair opportunity to win, against anyone in the class, at any time. It's one thing to admit you lost because a better driver beat you, it's another to feel or consider you were beat by a driver that has better equipment.
I've been there myself. I know what it looks and tastes like. The box stock class here has been growing weekly. And for example, last friday the top 5 drivers out of 9 wer within 10 feet of each other afte 7:45 seconds and the lead changed 3 times on the last lap! That friends is close racing.