AVC: Cheating or Not?!
 

Ok folks, I started a big 'ol fight in another thread. Dang near hijacked it! So I decided it deserved its own thread. And here it is:

AVC: Active Vehicle Control. In the world of off-road racing, is it cheating....or not?!

The latest and greatest system that I am aware of is what I've witnessed from Horizon Hobby/Spectrum. And that is what I'll be referring to whenever I talk about AVC.

My opinion?!(yes, I am entitled to one)

It's cheating. Of course, if your club/track allows it, then I suppose it's ok to get all the help you need to drive around faster than the other driver. Of course, as you would expect, ROAR and IFMAR have deemed it illegal for sanctioned races. And I believe that in the world of off-road RC racing in which people get together to square off in the classic example of man-and-machine vs the other driver; it has no place.

Some would argue that it is no different than slipper clutches, softer tires, fancy radio/transmitter settings and the like. That is a scientifically proven falsehood. Everything, including an AVC system, is adjusted before, during and/or after the race. Each individual part works to make the vehicle go around the track faster than than thought possible 20 years ago.

However, the AVC is the ONLY part/system(whatever you want to call it) that adjusts
automatically WITHOUT human intervention once activated while ON the track. When turned on by the driver for use, it is a COMPUTER that determines whether or not it becomes necessary to "engage". Once activated, the human can instill some input via the transmitter(left-right, go-stop, etc)....but technically, none is needed.

For example, a perfectly tuned AVC setup in just about any car can be pointed at a jump on a fairly slippery surface(dust/mud/etc) and the driver can just "peg the throttle". There is an extremely high probability that the vehicle will use its sensors to keep the vehicle straight and at the maximum power allowable to remain steady......without any human input required except for the throttle to go forward. The vehicle will hit the jump at the highest possible speed allowed by traction, motor power, and the fact that the steering will likely put it exactly where you pointed it from the start(plus or minus 10 degrees).

Virtually any driver with any vehicle at any level of experience can now drive fairly competently on just about any surface(when properly set up by a user, of course). Power spin-outs, overspeeding into corners, and the like can be virtually a thing of the past!

As always, one needs money to buy such a neat gadget because it doesn't come with every make and model that one can buy. And not all AVC systems are the same, operate alike and/or react the same in different vehicles.

Don't get me wrong....I embrace technology! So if your track/club allows it or you want to use it in your basher.....go for it! But it will NEVER change the fact that you, the driver, is not in complete control of your vehicle. And if you win a race or two.....did YOU really win?!

Ok...I'm done for now. Your thoughts?!

BTW, flaming, belittling, eye-poking and general rudeness will get you reported. Keep it classy people......

Lob ball. I got it.

If you race at a track that allows it, it is legal.

If you race at a track that does not allow it, it is not legal.

If you race at a track that follows ROAR rules, it is not legal....
"5.2.3 The use of traction control sensing devices, active suspension devices, and steering control devices aided by gyroscopes or accelerometers (G-force sensors) of any kind is strictly prohibited."

Or we could just argue about it for the next 200 posts.

I had the pleasure of driving a vehicle this past weekend that had the spektrum AVC receiver in it, and let me just tell you, I dont see how this tech could possibly make anyone but a very very green newbie any better!! I run mid pack in my local mod scene and while a few of us had fun driving it, it was in no way faster than us wheeling our regular cars. If you have absolutely no throttle control then it might help you but if that were the case you wouldnt be at the top of the field anyways so who cares.

Yup n...I'm sure there are plenty of people ready to go 200-300 without food and/or sleep! LOL

I have been wanting to try it out. At $100 for a receiver it's a tough nut to crack, but I could use a new radio and for around $200 I can get a new remote with 2 receivers, and one with AVC. I would really like to see a pro driver run a fully dialed car without it, then put it in and set it all up and see if he gains any time. See if there is any real true advantage when the driver is skilled.

Interesting post.....I need to try it....but the advertisement makes it sound so much more than you just explained.

Sums up the cheater aspect.

But what about the technology, cost and performance.

I haven't used it but the advertising info the steering control looks just like a gyro.

Unsure how the traction control aspect works.

Gyros have been banned for quite some time but the technology is now much cheaper and it comes included with budget-mid priced radio gear as well as hobby grade kits. Previously it was a very expensive add on.

As we don't sit in rc cars and as they are now included in mid priced gear perhaps some of these aids should be re investigated for racing.


Banning a separate gyro that was easy to see it very different to one that is inbuilt. Scruit if completed correctly is excessively timing consuming not to mention difficult already.

Of course it does, im not bein rude but they want you to buy it so they make it sound like its the coolest thing since sliced bread and its not. For example in the mod class... If you have a front or back straight into a tight 180* or 90* turn you would use some brakes to slide the car around while still maintaining some corner speed, well with AVC this is a near impossible task. It doesnt allow you to carry the same amount of speed so therefore its slower. This is just one example. Its great tech for a very new driver and I think that is the market strategy behind it. Im sure it will advance and get better but the vehicle i drove could no sooner keep up then fly to the moon. It was fun to drive but not competitive in the racing scene IMO.

I feel like this is the same as whether boost is legal or not depending on where you race...
I say let people run it, I have confidence that I can beat them. A good driver would rather be in control... You think a real race car driver wants a computer to drive? Nope

Real car on the track (RWD) I don't want traction control or ABS as they are slower and wreck the driving experience.

The same goes for electronic steering which kills the feel.

But some aids such as active center diff for AWD cars make cars faster and can be setup to not impact on the driving aspect.

In the previous thread I made the comparison to helis which gyros and other aids have been embraced and have made a world of difference.

I don't know if this will do the same for cars (I doubt it) but we should at least give it a go and see where it ends up.

Tried using a gyro (just to check it out as I had one lying around in my pit box) on my 2wd buggy and I can't understand why anyone would want to use it. Like frozenpod said it wrecked the driving experience and the feeling of the car was so artificial.

RC is meant to be for fun!

I will post here just for fun, as I don't expect anyone to actually want info here. Everyone seems to have already made up their minds, but here goes anyways lol.

I think AVC is a good thing. Whether it helps a new driver get around the track, or gets a good driver better times, it is just one more tool to be used.

It doesn't drive itself. Saying that is just ignorant. Is it cheating? If you are using it without anyone knowing, and it is against the rules, of course it is. But then again, so is someone running buggy wheels on an SC. Or running a larger motor than allowed. When brushless first started becoming popular, how many said it is cheating? They are for people too lazy to cut comms, balance them, gear to make the race time, etc..

A well tuned rc will go faster than a poorly tuned one, whether nitro engine tuning, suspension tuning, diffs, etc.. A better radio will help with feel and control and help you go faster. Sensored vs non sensored, for racing, sensored will usually help you go faster. A 550 motor will run cooler and more efficient on 3s than a 540 on 2s. Nobody is throwing a fit that Tekin is making 550 SC motors, which clearly are NOT legal for SC racing. All of these things are designed to make you go faster with better reliability.

Entering a corner too fast will lose you time or cause a crash. AVC doesn't change that. Jumping takes practice. AVC doesn't change that. Over shooting a jump will cause you to lose time or crash. AVC doesn't change that. It helps keep the car pointing straight and may help with traction, much like a good set of tires, shock tuning, and a sensored motor or properly tuned clutch for nitro. If you don't like it, don't run it. I like the low cost and waterproof ability of Castle/HW/Dynamite/Etc. esc's (although I currently have a MMP and Tekin Pro4 lol). Will I be competitive if I run a 2s 540 SC against a 3s 550 sensored setup? They must be cheating, because it allows for smoother throttle application, runs cooler too. Will I be faster with the 3s sensored setup? Depending on the track, very possible. But that setup costs money. So does everything in RC.

So don't use it. But to say it is cheating, or it's not the driver since the rc is driving itself is just plain stupid. Not to mention to the guy that just bought one and is having fun at the track, I am sure he appreciates all the comments, and he will run out and tell all his buddies what a great time he had at the track and all the great people that were saying he is cheating, and he cant drive its the rc doing it. He should have spent more on a sensored setup, a high end rc that requires lots of setup, some good track specific tires, and a transponder as well. Yep, that will definitely expand the hobby and ensure the LHS sees new customers.

Let's keep it simples as life ... lol

AVC is simply a gyro that helps.

Helps what and why?

Helps speeding and cornegring all together!

Why, brushless power is to powerfull and needs control.

If you are racing at tracks consider it illegal and usually you don't need it cause you drive slow cars and skill's are for jumping and cornering good.

For the bash world where to much power and speed is always not enough we are starting to need to have stability thanks to brushless power that people like to apply extra voltage to it.

That's why "gyros" will become part of the bussiness in rtr's for the next years. It will become a thing neede like an BEC or ESC. Always with the option to switch it off.

+ YouTube Video

-In the bash world they use 6s... need a gyro defenitly! Brute force and mad speed needs some brain to control it....
-In the racing world they use 4s... not needed cause of 2 reasons... brain is the driver... and they need to extract the maximum speed with suspension limits and the last thing they need is something cutting and controlling instead of the driver....


That's what i think and learned all over the years...

AVC was designed to help the new people enjoy the hobby more. It should not be used in a competitive race at all. That from my understanding was not the intent. If you give a 6 year old kid a car ready to rock with full power and no AVC get ready for a Tasmanian devil effect.

Turn on the AVC and the kid has a much better experience and as they grow they lessen the AVC and learn to drive or race the right way.

Same goes for anyone of any age getting into the hobby.

Being a good driver with AVC is not going to make a huge difference because you still actually have to drive the car around the track. Will it help sure but I do not think it will help enough for you to start winning races.

Until you have actually driven it, you really have no room to comment. The AVC system get's in the way of a real driver, at least for offroad. Onroad may be a different story but for now the AVC is only a 2 axis system and when the car leaves the ground, things tend to get ugly. It can't deal with jumping very well and causes more problems than it solves. As long as you leave the jump straight, all is fine but if you come off a jump in an un-natural position, it just gets ugly from there.

We have a local track that is starting a class of the Losi Mini-8ight-T's and after some experimenting, the rules will allow the AVC because it comes on the truck but they are strongly suggesting you turn it off if you want to go fast.