Sad story: Cheating rampant at big races...
09-02-2014, 06:44 PM
#991
Stock off-road didn't exist for the last years of brushed motor racing in most of the best R/C markets in the US and. Now it's very popular in many markets, largely because track owners had the foresight to ban timing advance speed controls.
09-02-2014, 06:57 PM
#992
Tech Adept
Attitudes like that always just bother the crap out of me. It's nothing more than hyperbole.
Skill will always be a factor in deciding who wins. Even if the cars drive themselves (like a tether car), it become about who can set the car up the best. It's a different skill, but a skill nonetheless. We are ages from having an RC car drive itself. The technology to make a car drive itself (like the google car) costs more than most of us make in a year.
What is the difference between AVC and a slipper clutch? They both make the car easier to drive (less skill required from the driver). What makes a slipper acceptable but not the AVC?
Why stop there? Why have a diff? The car is harder to control without it, so we should get rid of it! Let skill sort it out!
You know what, we should all race ultra hard and long lasting tire compounds, too, because having too much traction takes the skill out of it, too!
You see where this is headed? AVC is nothing more than a different flavor of driver aid on top of all the other driver aids we already have.
In a less tongue in cheek kind of analogy, user settable throttle rates and expos on radio is a prime example of an electronic driver aid that we all readily accept as "legal." What is the real difference between that and AVC?
Skill will always be a factor in deciding who wins. Even if the cars drive themselves (like a tether car), it become about who can set the car up the best. It's a different skill, but a skill nonetheless. We are ages from having an RC car drive itself. The technology to make a car drive itself (like the google car) costs more than most of us make in a year.
What is the difference between AVC and a slipper clutch? They both make the car easier to drive (less skill required from the driver). What makes a slipper acceptable but not the AVC?
Why stop there? Why have a diff? The car is harder to control without it, so we should get rid of it! Let skill sort it out!
You know what, we should all race ultra hard and long lasting tire compounds, too, because having too much traction takes the skill out of it, too!
You see where this is headed? AVC is nothing more than a different flavor of driver aid on top of all the other driver aids we already have.
In a less tongue in cheek kind of analogy, user settable throttle rates and expos on radio is a prime example of an electronic driver aid that we all readily accept as "legal." What is the real difference between that and AVC?
EXACTLY! The driver makes ALL of the adjustments! With AVC, the sensors and computer make the adjustments. HUGE difference.....
....RC racing isn't about protecting passengers inside...it's about the driver(and ONLY the driver) manipulating ALL aspects of the vehicle to be faster than the others.
....RC racing isn't about protecting passengers inside...it's about the driver(and ONLY the driver) manipulating ALL aspects of the vehicle to be faster than the others.
09-02-2014, 07:31 PM
#994
Rubber tires went from lasting a season to lasting 4-8 runs. Batteries. Batteries. Chassis of the month club. Fast body club. Batteries. Multiple minor classes (17.5, 13.5, foam or rubber in both). Modified class that is too fast for anyone to drive reasonably well. T/C pretty much died because of timing speed controls and it hasn't come back from that I the US that I can see.
Stock off-road didn't exist for the last years of brushed motor racing in most of the best R/C markets in the US and. Now it's very popular in many markets, largely because track owners had the foresight to ban timing advance speed controls.
Stock off-road didn't exist for the last years of brushed motor racing in most of the best R/C markets in the US and. Now it's very popular in many markets, largely because track owners had the foresight to ban timing advance speed controls.
Typical tyre life on an indoor track is 20-40 runs.
When did on road tyres ever last a season?
Batteries for both on road and off road are the same. Today instead of having 6 Nimh packs and replacing them every 3 months or every big race most fast racers have 2 lipos and use them for 12 plus months. With the introduction of Lipos my on road battery bill went from $1800 per year to $200. Same applies to off road.
Foam tyres are very rarely used and only at a handful of clubs. I cant think of a big event anywhere in the world which had foam tyres. Clubs I have raced at haven't used foam tyres since about 2002.
3 motors classes in some cases 4, 1-2 extra compared with off road but less chassi options provides similar or less class dilution.
LW bodies have increased cost slightly. I wouldn't call them body of the month as there are not many options but they do require regular replacment due to damage. The LW bodies are slightly cheaper to buy and only last me about 3 months vs 6 months for a regular weight body.
TC didn't die with dynamic speed controls but it has suffered due to blinky and the additional costs associated with racing blinky.
Chassi of the month, more like minor part updates every year. You can buy upgrade kits of buy a new chassi which for most racers comes down to what spare parts you have instock at the time or continue to use the older car.
So no tech that is different to off road.
09-02-2014, 08:00 PM
#995
The on-road experience you describe is very different from that of the tracks in the Midwest that have abandoned carpet racing or closed all together, due to loss of interest caused by the reasons I cited.
We have seen new indoor off road tracks (in addition to a few that have been open for 10+ years) open over the past 5 years.
The tech has clearly not affected on and off road the same.
We have seen new indoor off road tracks (in addition to a few that have been open for 10+ years) open over the past 5 years.
The tech has clearly not affected on and off road the same.
09-02-2014, 08:07 PM
#996
When did the on road tracks mostly die?
As per my previous posts in this thread we locally made the change from boosted to blinky.
About 3 months in and costs have increased considerably. Not to metnion there are greater power dependencies between motors with blinky and cheating even at club level is growing.
Entries have dropped off faster than I have ever seen, I hope things turn around but it doesn't look good.
BTW out of interest I had a look at the available chassi options earlier this year.
I found 17 different brands of TC chassis some of which were just released if on road was dead or dieing why would a manufacture put in the R&D $$$.
As per my previous posts in this thread we locally made the change from boosted to blinky.
About 3 months in and costs have increased considerably. Not to metnion there are greater power dependencies between motors with blinky and cheating even at club level is growing.
Entries have dropped off faster than I have ever seen, I hope things turn around but it doesn't look good.
BTW out of interest I had a look at the available chassi options earlier this year.
I found 17 different brands of TC chassis some of which were just released if on road was dead or dieing why would a manufacture put in the R&D $$$.
Last edited by frozenpod; 09-02-2014 at 08:35 PM.
09-03-2014, 05:05 AM
#997
In my region carpet tracks started closing about 5 years ago, seemingly immediately after timing/boost speed controls came out.
If you know cheating is happening at your track, ban the racers doing it. They are why racers are leaving, not a rule change.
As you can see at your own track, carpet on-road is dying.
There are 17 choices because it is a high dollar, low volume business that is more successful in Asia and Europe than here.
If you know cheating is happening at your track, ban the racers doing it. They are why racers are leaving, not a rule change.
As you can see at your own track, carpet on-road is dying.
There are 17 choices because it is a high dollar, low volume business that is more successful in Asia and Europe than here.
09-03-2014, 06:14 AM
#998
I doubt boost had anything to do with the decline in the midwest.
According to posts in this thread ROAR introduced blinky almost immediately after adjustable dynamic timing was introduced.
Interesting and incorrect assumptions. The local track is indoor asphalt, we had the strongest racing in the region until very recently. I doubt the local change has anything to do with what happened 5 years ago in the mid west.
Have to wait and see what happens but it appears the damage has already been done.
So back to your original comment, do you still think tech has anything to do with the decline in on road.
According to posts in this thread ROAR introduced blinky almost immediately after adjustable dynamic timing was introduced.
Interesting and incorrect assumptions. The local track is indoor asphalt, we had the strongest racing in the region until very recently. I doubt the local change has anything to do with what happened 5 years ago in the mid west.
Have to wait and see what happens but it appears the damage has already been done.
So back to your original comment, do you still think tech has anything to do with the decline in on road.
09-03-2014, 09:17 AM
#999
Timing advance absolutely killed on-road in my area. Overnight the "slowest" class was too fast for all but the best racers. The change to blinky did not happen fast enough to save it.
Yes. Tech has been and is killing on-road. Not an opinion, fact.
I've watched this play out at least a half dozen times over the past 30 years. It goes like this: A class emerges that re-ignites popularity in the hobby (off road, TC racing, Short Course, etc.). This class is always simpler and less expensive than what was common before. After a short time, it becomes corrupt with tech and expense, turning it into something very different than it was when it began, and popularity declines. EVERY time.
09-03-2014, 10:01 AM
#1000
Timing advance absolutely killed on-road in my area. Overnight the "slowest" class was too fast for all but the best racers. The change to blinky did not happen fast enough to save it.
Yes. Tech has been and is killing on-road. Not an opinion, fact.
I've watched this play out at least a half dozen times over the past 30 years. It goes like this: A class emerges that re-ignites popularity in the hobby (off road, TC racing, Short Course, etc.). This class is always simpler and less expensive than what was common before. After a short time, it becomes corrupt with tech and expense, turning it into something very different than it was when it began, and popularity declines. EVERY time.
Yes. Tech has been and is killing on-road. Not an opinion, fact.
I've watched this play out at least a half dozen times over the past 30 years. It goes like this: A class emerges that re-ignites popularity in the hobby (off road, TC racing, Short Course, etc.). This class is always simpler and less expensive than what was common before. After a short time, it becomes corrupt with tech and expense, turning it into something very different than it was when it began, and popularity declines. EVERY time.
Anyone remember the Slash Spec? And now with so many choices in chassis and motors how strong is 2wd SC? The Nitro TC, cars with rubber tires that turned a parking lot into a track, where are they now?
And then we look at the next class to make more expensive, harder and more elitist. RC cars could be so popular with the race simulator gamers(and gamers in general) but everyone is looking at the wrong problems and the manufacturers are busy profiting.
09-03-2014, 10:20 AM
#1001
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You guys are still fighting about boost vs. blinky
If I start a Poll thread asking which is better for racing and the health of the hobby would it end this dead horse debate?
You're both smart enough to create your own thread title for the debate. so please do, because it has nothing to do with the topic of this thread...Which is cheating in spec classes.
If I start a Poll thread asking which is better for racing and the health of the hobby would it end this dead horse debate?
You're both smart enough to create your own thread title for the debate. so please do, because it has nothing to do with the topic of this thread...Which is cheating in spec classes.
09-03-2014, 02:13 PM
#1002
Point well taken. Davidka=out.
09-03-2014, 04:15 PM
#1003
Timing advance absolutely killed on-road in my area. Overnight the "slowest" class was too fast for all but the best racers. The change to blinky did not happen fast enough to save it.
Yes. Tech has been and is killing on-road. Not an opinion, fact.
I've watched this play out at least a half dozen times over the past 30 years. It goes like this: A class emerges that re-ignites popularity in the hobby (off road, TC racing, Short Course, etc.). This class is always simpler and less expensive than what was common before. After a short time, it becomes corrupt with tech and expense, turning it into something very different than it was when it began, and popularity declines. EVERY time.
Yes. Tech has been and is killing on-road. Not an opinion, fact.
I've watched this play out at least a half dozen times over the past 30 years. It goes like this: A class emerges that re-ignites popularity in the hobby (off road, TC racing, Short Course, etc.). This class is always simpler and less expensive than what was common before. After a short time, it becomes corrupt with tech and expense, turning it into something very different than it was when it began, and popularity declines. EVERY time.
If tech has killed on road as the same tech batteries, motors and ESC are used in off road the same will happen in off road. In the very least finding the root cause of the problem to ensure the mistake doesn't happen again is worth while.
You talked about chassi of the month I saw in the LHS yesterday a $499 carbon fiber 2wd buggy ouch.
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