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Old 06-27-2005, 02:14 PM   #61
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Old 06-27-2005, 02:46 PM   #62
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Sean, the only problem with only 1 day of practice would be trying to figure out which tire is best for you. It is hard to use the gas nats in comparison to other nats. The tire wear at a gas nat and how the tracks tend to get broken down and unmaintained excludes many of the tires out of the equation. Due to the need for maximum traction, the chances of the track being brutal on tires, and the likely hood of the track getting rough, most gas races end up useing one of the following tires in only one of 3 compounds with not a single one being prodominately better:
Losi tires in Red = T-Bones, Step Pins, Reptiles, or Ifmar pins(rarely)
Proline in R3 or M3 = Snake Eyes, Bowties, or Holeshots(rarely)

Everyone knows one of these tires will be used and will perform extremely well.

Depending on a persons experience with certain tires, they know which ones they like over others. People will only bring tires they know they prefer on their vehicle from experience with them. This is already cutting down on the need to bring so many different tires to this event.

I do not think that tire compounds can be improved much more than what they are now. Currently at any track people goto for off-road or on-road, they can find a tire that will give maximum traction to the point of too much traction, with wear being the trade off. I mean, yes, they can make tires that last longer but the traction will drastically be reduced and this will make driving rougher when people battle for position.

I really think the problem with the electric off-road and the on-road scene with tires is the massive amounts of tires that are out there for people to choose from. Look at 1/8 scale, there are 3 tires that proline makes, 3 tires that panther makes, and 3 tires that GRP makes that work on 95% of the tracks that they run on. And each brands tire that are similar in design work extremely similar in performance. How many tires does Losi or Proline make for electric off-road(primarily designed for electric and not nitro)? I would say Losi has 5 different tires, with some performing similar to others(tapers and bk bars, ifmars and big shots), and Proline has 4 different designs with 3 having very similar performance characteristics(holeshots, evil twins, squares). With on-road, the tires change performance wise just from what time of the day it is, with 4 different dominate tire companies and each having a tire that works for different times of the day depednding on the temperature, it adds up.
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Old 06-27-2005, 04:32 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. Thomas
Sean, the only problem with only 1 day of practice would be trying to figure out which tire is best for you. It is hard to use the gas nats in comparison to other nats. The tire wear at a gas nat and how the tracks tend to get broken down and unmaintained excludes many of the tires out of the equation. Due to the need for maximum traction, the chances of the track being brutal on tires, and the likely hood of the track getting rough, most gas races end up useing one of the following tires in only one of 3 compounds with not a single one being prodominately better:
Losi tires in Red = T-Bones, Step Pins, Reptiles, or Ifmar pins(rarely)
Proline in R3 or M3 = Snake Eyes, Bowties, or Holeshots(rarely)

Everyone knows one of these tires will be used and will perform extremely well.

Depending on a persons experience with certain tires, they know which ones they like over others. People will only bring tires they know they prefer on their vehicle from experience with them. This is already cutting down on the need to bring so many different tires to this event.

I do not think that tire compounds can be improved much more than what they are now. Currently at any track people goto for off-road or on-road, they can find a tire that will give maximum traction to the point of too much traction, with wear being the trade off. I mean, yes, they can make tires that last longer but the traction will drastically be reduced and this will make driving rougher when people battle for position.

I really think the problem with the electric off-road and the on-road scene with tires is the massive amounts of tires that are out there for people to choose from. Look at 1/8 scale, there are 3 tires that proline makes, 3 tires that panther makes, and 3 tires that GRP makes that work on 95% of the tracks that they run on. And each brands tire that are similar in design work extremely similar in performance. How many tires does Losi or Proline make for electric off-road(primarily designed for electric and not nitro)? I would say Losi has 5 different tires, with some performing similar to others(tapers and bk bars, ifmars and big shots), and Proline has 4 different designs with 3 having very similar performance characteristics(holeshots, evil twins, squares). With on-road, the tires change performance wise just from what time of the day it is, with 4 different dominate tire companies and each having a tire that works for different times of the day depednding on the temperature, it adds up.
Tracks aren't some mysterious thing that nobody knows about. So when somebody says that some crazy compound may work or we don't know what will work I don't get it. we know what works everywhere. That super secret compound that seems to work, but never be for sale? Odd are jsut as good, if not better that it doesn't work.

IF you make it so tires have to last and there are no excepts you'll see new compounds, or at least harder ones that will last. You of course can complain that it's not as fast as the 1 runs, but if everybody has to use it they will be happy.


I was watching the Worlds in Detroit and they were spitting up roosts down the straight, bumps everywhere. Lett made up 4 seconds in one lap from taking a different line and even made huge mistakes. Today it's soo consistent that it takes the fun out of it when you crash.

SPEC tires can be a company has to bring 2 tires to a track and only they can be use, like how F1 is supposed to bring 2 options. I just think the entire SPEC tire theory has to be re thought. It isn't doing any good for the industry in the long run. If something saves us a few bucks now and cost the industry new people and the downsizing of organized racing I tend to think that looking long term of what's good for the industry is the smarter thing to do.


Sean, I think we agree on lots of stuff, it's just maybe our internet personalities are too much alike.
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Old 06-27-2005, 04:45 PM   #64
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Quote:
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Sean, I think we agree on lots of stuff, it's just maybe our internet personalities are too much alike.


That is it, BTW... but I wasn't gonna say it.
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Old 06-27-2005, 04:51 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Dawn Sanchez


That is it, BTW... but I wasn't gonna say it.

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Old 06-27-2005, 05:16 PM   #66
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Sean, I think we agree on lots of stuff, it's just maybe our internet personalities are too much alike.
Yeah, I think so.

Your still one of those magazine dudes though, LOL. J/K.
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Old 06-27-2005, 05:24 PM   #67
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Derek, you bring up in the long run, if people had to use a single tire at one event a year, that the manufacturers would create a new compound that would last, might have less trtaction but would last longer. That would be great for that 1 race each year where they would be run, but for the local everyday club racer, they want as much traction as possible, and if he can gain an advantage over his buddy with traction from a tire that will wear out more just to win he will run it. That by itself says that tires are not going to get harder to help increase life, it means they will only get softer because people want speed. They will spend money for speed at club races just to win. I like the idea of a single tire for all qualifying and possibly a second tire for the mains, this would reduce the amount of tires needed greatly. But I do not think this will yeild a new compound, it will just have people useing the softest compound they can find that has pins large enough to last the entire race.
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Old 06-27-2005, 05:37 PM   #68
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To be competitive at these races, you basically have to show up on the first day of practice... Makes it hard for the regular guy to do this as he is going to have to take nearly a week if not a week off of work to do so.... Some people just cannot afford to do this and I feel as though is a big part of the decline of attendance.... Even if there are only 10 people out of all the 6000 members of ROAR that this affects, that could quite possibly equal 30 more entries (3 classes) for the race... When put like that... it really means alot, especially if you compare it to last years nat's.... 30 more entries would have put the race at around 280 and only 20 shy of the entry cutoff.

I think the bottom line is.... How do we get the race to fill up every year.... and that is what we need to do to make it better....

But we have to try new things in order to know if it is going to help or not.... If we don't then we will never know.....
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Old 06-27-2005, 06:20 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by T. Thomas
Derek, you bring up in the long run, if people had to use a single tire at one event a year, that the manufacturers would create a new compound that would last, might have less trtaction but would last longer. That would be great for that 1 race each year where they would be run, but for the local everyday club racer, they want as much traction as possible, and if he can gain an advantage over his buddy with traction from a tire that will wear out more just to win he will run it. That by itself says that tires are not going to get harder to help increase life, it means they will only get softer because people want speed. They will spend money for speed at club races just to win. I like the idea of a single tire for all qualifying and possibly a second tire for the mains, this would reduce the amount of tires needed greatly. But I do not think this will yeild a new compound, it will just have people useing the softest compound they can find that has pins large enough to last the entire race.
there are a couple things wrong with this statement. a softer tires do not always give the most bite, a stiff tire at some tracks give more bite, also a tire with a bigger pin dont work on a super high bite hard packed track so that wouldnt work either
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Old 06-27-2005, 06:53 PM   #70
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I agree completely with what you say craziracer. But if a tire is required to last throughout all of qualifying, a small pin, no matter if harder rubber or softer rubber is not going to last on modern high bite clay tracks. Currently the losi red and proline M3 work better on most tracks, not all(pink and R3 are better but those are not even close to the same rubber). The reason why most goto a harder compound on most tracks is not that they give more traction, they just smooth out the traction and help prevent too much traction causing the vehicle to flip.

Best example of why manufacturers will just go to a larger pin for tire life and not a new compound. Take 1/8 scale off-road racing. Currently Proline has XTR, M2, R3, M3 compounds, but they only ake tires with M2 and XTR compounds. the M3 compound would not support the sized lugs the buggy's use and the wear would be drastically increased(would last no where near as long as M2 on a buggy). Instead of creating a new compound that would last the gruling 1 hour main on high bite tracks with the crimefighter, they just opted to create the Knuckle to allow the use of the M2 compound on an extremely abbrasive track. In 5 minutes the M2 crime fighter would prolly give more traction, but would not last no where near the life of a knuckle. Traction is not lost but tire life is drastically increased. This is what I think would happen if tires become an issue of requirement for longer races. Gas truck is the same way. At the Nats this year, Adam tried Sprints on the back of his truck, he was extremely fast with them, but they did not last near as long as the T-bone. Now Losi has quick change hubs on the rear of their truck, this so they could use a soft tire that may wear fast because they can now change the tire in longer mains instead of creating a new compound rubber that creates the same traction as the red compound but lasts longer.

I am just trying to find a way that will reduce costs of racing, which is in my opinion the biggest killer of National electric off-road events, while still being able to allow people options of tires. I have mentioned before, the nationals is a place where people go to see WHO is the best, not WHAT is the best. There are plenty of other races where people have a choice whether or not they compete against the manufacturers in the factory class or against others in an open class which means similar equipment. If a national turns into WHAT company HAS the BEST equipment, then to me that is not a NATIONAL event, it becomes a Manufacturers duel.
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Old 06-27-2005, 07:13 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. Thomas
I agree completely with what you say craziracer. But if a tire is required to last throughout all of qualifying, a small pin, no matter if harder rubber or softer rubber is not going to last on modern high bite clay tracks. Currently the losi red and proline M3 work better on most tracks, not all(pink and R3 are better but those are not even close to the same rubber). The reason why most goto a harder compound on most tracks is not that they give more traction, they just smooth out the traction and help prevent too much traction causing the vehicle to flip.

Best example of why manufacturers will just go to a larger pin for tire life and not a new compound. Take 1/8 scale off-road racing. Currently Proline has XTR, M2, R3, M3 compounds, but they only ake tires with M2 and XTR compounds. the M3 compound would not support the sized lugs the buggy's use and the wear would be drastically increased(would last no where near as long as M2 on a buggy). Instead of creating a new compound that would last the gruling 1 hour main on high bite tracks with the crimefighter, they just opted to create the Knuckle to allow the use of the M2 compound on an extremely abbrasive track. In 5 minutes the M2 crime fighter would prolly give more traction, but would not last no where near the life of a knuckle. Traction is not lost but tire life is drastically increased. This is what I think would happen if tires become an issue of requirement for longer races. Gas truck is the same way. At the Nats this year, Adam tried Sprints on the back of his truck, he was extremely fast with them, but they did not last near as long as the T-bone. Now Losi has quick change hubs on the rear of their truck, this so they could use a soft tire that may wear fast because they can now change the tire in longer mains instead of creating a new compound rubber that creates the same traction as the red compound but lasts longer.

I am just trying to find a way that will reduce costs of racing, which is in my opinion the biggest killer of National electric off-road events, while still being able to allow people options of tires. I have mentioned before, the nationals is a place where people go to see WHO is the best, not WHAT is the best. There are plenty of other races where people have a choice whether or not they compete against the manufacturers in the factory class or against others in an open class which means similar equipment. If a national turns into WHAT company HAS the BEST equipment, then to me that is not a NATIONAL event, it becomes a Manufacturers duel.

Clay tracks ruin racing, all high traction tracks do. Off road and TC were much bigger when the tracks were fun to run.

A National event is a product dual. We are a consumer hobby which means we buy what wins. I don't buy Pavidis or Francis. So I want what is better. Soft tires aren't better. IF we all reduce traction and have a little less grip you'll still be "faster" than the guy next to you.

I think everybody needs to try a drift car with some friends and set up a track to race/drift. There is Zero traction, you go pretty slow, but its really lots of fun. It's a slow motion race. All the elements but without traction.
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Old 06-27-2005, 08:02 PM   #72
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I say get out the roto-tiller and make the tracks loamy again. Guys would argue that the conditions wouldn't be consistent but that's the point of offroad. If consistency is the be all end all then we should all just run pavemnent. (I'd sell all of my stuff tomorrow...)
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Old 06-28-2005, 07:08 AM   #73
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Anyone attend the region 1 champs and try these "spec" tires?Any comments?As for the surface comments...My home track,Marshalls hilltop hobbies,Is a loamy type track.It changes quite a bit over a race day.IMHO..That just adds to the fun.Chasing setups and driving line as it changes adds to the challenge.Winning feels just a bit more satisfying.One other aspect is tire wear.Been to the "dirty concrete"tracks.We can get 1/2 a season or more from one set of tires,rather than 1 set a race day.Now thats saving money.I agree with Derek on his "one qual/one race" set idea.But,the tires should be appropriate for the track.Rambling a bit,not much sleep.Mario.
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Old 06-28-2005, 07:51 AM   #74
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RE: high-traction TC tracks killing racing - the pros (IMO) run on high-traction tracks because that is what they get at the top-level races, and many people like to run where the pros do, so that could be why the high-traction tracks are so popular. Of course that may be an answer to why Derek thinks TC racing is dying (I don't think it is), but this answer may only apply in places like SoCal, NorCal, Florida and the upper East Coast. Why is it dying in the Midwest? *IS* it dying in the Midwest and other places? I think it's more cyclic - as a new class of racing (as opposed to 1/8th gas and 1/12, which were the mainstay of on-road racing for years) this period of time may be the first decline of popularity of the TC class.

Maybe another thread could be started by a seasoned off-roader about how to get more tracks to try a loose, loamy and "dirty" surface. I've never built or maintained an off-road track but I'd guess that it's easier to maintain a primarily clay track, and even easier to deal with a blue-groove track. This could be why most of the tires out there are mini pins? I remember racing my RC10 Worlds with Y-patterns and step-pins, now that was off-road
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Old 06-28-2005, 08:50 AM   #75
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I wasnt there for the mod day, but I ran the stock day... On my t4 I ended up with red ifmar rears with stock inserts (some peopel ran two stages) and silver losi directional fronts. In buggy and people with mf2's were trying cut holeshots but from what I saw they lacked sidebite... All in all I am pretty much sure the factory spec tire will not be one I will be running. And I dont think they will be really far off in 2wd or truck as much as 4wd...
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