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Old 06-23-2005, 01:31 PM   #46
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I read that some people like controlled tires and some don't. Everyone still thinks that a manufacturer should be able to run what ever they want at a National event. I agree to a point. That is what I feel the Cactus, hotrod shoot out, Losi Race, and other major events are for. To do all the testing the manufacturer wants. People have a choice there whether they run against the factory drivers or not. I like dereks point of looking at F1, they use to be run what ever no cost restricted. Now they enforce a 1 tire rule for qualifying and the race, only allowed to change the tire if the tire presents itself to be a dnager tot he driver. Only draw back to this would be that at some tracks, this is not possible, and if the manufacturer does create a compound to last, what says they will release it. I remember the grey or white compound that Losi made, was softer than M3 if I remember, but it was never released. Only today have I seen someone actually post tires for RC MAdness, and the bad thing is, those tires are hard to find right now, most local hobby shops in my area has had them on order for months just to be told they are out of stock. At a National event, the major manufacturers are already sponsoring the events, why not have them bring a sales rep and the prefered tire and set up a booth to sell the tire of preference at the track. This way they had direct contact with their manufacturing plant and can order and maintain a stock of tires required for the racers. This would aleiviate the need for the tracks to purchase tires that they may end up having to deal with once the event is over. As it sits, there are 3 tire companies that make proven tires, Panther, Losi, and Pro Line. All three have the capability to produce and maintain a viable amount of tires to be sold directly to the racer.

I feel that at a National should not be a battle of the manufacturer for the win, but the battle of the drivers. The Stock Offroad National still has hand out tires and a chassis restriction along with the hand out motors, but this is for racers that are not factory backed to help keep the racing even(so to speak). I feel that instead of a spec tire being made, it should be a tire that is available to the public, similar to the chassis rule in stock. If a manufacturer does like I suggested in the previous paragraph and bring a proto type tire that anyone at the evnt can purchase, then that tire would be considered available, but only if the quantity of the tire is enough to not run out for all racers.

Just the cost of attending the Nationals is already such an enourmous amount, why add to it when you will need to purchase 6 sets of 4 different threads in 2 different compound for each vehicle just to find the right tire combination for the track. If you run 2 classes that is a total of 98 pairs of tires, averaging say $12 a pair, that is over $1000 worth of tires. Is this a just amount of money for a competative non-sponsored driver to have to spend just to hope he can place high enough to possibly receive a sponsorship to help cut costs at future events? I don't care who it is, that is what has caused the Nationals to loose thier attendance. Atleast with a controlled tire, the cost will be cut by around 1/3 to 1/2. I attended the Nats in NM and I used a total of 30 pairs of tires for 2 classes and I was there from tuesday on. It cost me about $500 on tires and those tires were 1 run tires. If the manufacturers would have worked with the tracks better a longer lasting tire could have been choosen and it would have cut costs even more. At the Losi race I go through about 30 pairs of tires for 3 classes and I place very well there, but those tires for that track are 2-3 run tires.

I just feel there needs to be some kind of rule that limits the number of sets of tires, removes the proto type tire out of the equation(must be avaialable to everyone kind of tire), and reduces the cost of attending these events for the attandance to reach what they were in the mid to late 90's, where they were always packed full with people waiting on stand by(like the gas nats is every year).
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Old 06-23-2005, 01:39 PM   #47
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One of the reasons off-road is suffering is the tires. The old days had loamy soil where you used hard tires that lasted months.
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Old 06-23-2005, 02:02 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekB
One of the reasons off-road is suffering is the tires. The old days had loamy soil where you used hard tires that lasted months.

Exactly!!
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Old 06-23-2005, 02:07 PM   #49
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Tol - you gotta remember, the track in ABQ was just built and the tires selected were NOT the best choice but were forced due to circumstances.

That track has crazy traction right after a rebuild due to the sugar content they use... so one run is normal using those tires, compounds and the fact it was just built.

I recently ran a one day event there and used Proline Hole Shots for a five minute practice run and three races and still have those tires on my truck for SRS club racing. That ABQ track has its own personality.
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Old 06-23-2005, 02:12 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekB
One of the reasons off-road is suffering is the tires. The old days had loamy soil where you used hard tires that lasted months.

Those days were dialed! Losi HT's on 2.0 rims.....word!
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Old 06-23-2005, 02:17 PM   #51
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So here's my suggestion. Annouce in 1 year all tires will have to last through qualifying and the mains. Or at least through qualifying and another set of the main. Then we'll see some new better product.
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Old 06-23-2005, 03:30 PM   #52
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Dawn I understand that about ABQ, but if it wasn't for the hand out tire, I figure people would have spent nearly twice as much on tires because they would have brought so many different types, and enough of each for once they found the one they wanted. I know I would have brought Holeshots, Tapers, X-2000s, BK Bars(or squares, which ever I could find), King Pins, 8 ribs silver and red, 3 rib red and silver, 2 rib red and silver, and that to just find the best combo to my liking. Say 2-3 pairs for practice and another 3 pairs for the racing for the rear and then 2 pairs each for the front, that just added up to a lot of tires. that's 48 pairs for buggy and another 30 pairs for truck which would be roughly just under a grand on tires. I saved around $400 because they used a control tire, even though they were 1 run tires.

I am like Derek, I don't like controlled tires, but do feel that restrictions are needed.
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Old 06-23-2005, 03:36 PM   #53
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back to the spec tire rule. I like the idea of the spec tire rule roar had but not so much the open/optional idea. i cant see it sticking on a race of this caliber. are we not going to see the factory drivers listed switching if another tire is predominantly faster? i cant see anyone sticking to this unless the tire manufactures offer some sort of an incentive program, for say X amount of dollars for the top spots in each class using the spec tire.

i know the electric regional championships are being held there this weekend, track prep for this weekend should bring the track closer to the nats condition. i know stormperson and myself will be there so hopefully we can give updates after the weekend. later
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Old 06-23-2005, 04:59 PM   #54
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well u also gotta see the track and run on it, i doubt there will be to much tire wear
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Old 06-23-2005, 05:37 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. Thomas
I am like Derek, I don't like controlled tires, but do feel that restrictions are needed.

Agreed!! (what is that, three times now? LOL) (inside joke to those who don't know... )
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Old 06-27-2005, 09:55 AM   #56
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Derek - if you could show up to the RRoC and use any tires, inserts or wheels, how many different sets of Sorex, Ride, Take-Off, HPI, Yokomo, etc., tires will you bring? How many different sets of inserts will you bring? Same thing with wheels - hard, medium or soft? 24mm or 26mm? Once you've decided what works best for you (remember the days of pro racers showing up at a track a week ahead of a big race?) you then get to concentrate on your setup. A spec, pre-glued set of tires, and a limited number at that, keeps your cost as low as possible. Obviously this is all very much "IMHO" I do agree that if you tell the manufacturers now that a rule in a year or two is that tires must last for a full round or whatever, that would get them going on some development. Maybe there could be some way to encourage "real" off-road tracks with loamy dirt, while we're making a wish list

Dawn - no rules organization is going to appease everyone (I've run race series myself for the past several years, just not on the level of ROAR, so I know a bit of your pain) and of course everyone is going to vote for 'their' own perfect system (I raise my hand as a culprit), but with things like the brushlesss motor thing at the recent Nationals and teams coming to an agreement amongst themselves for tires, that doesn't exactly look good for ROAR, does it? Of course now that it's announced there's no backtracking so hopefully the rules or situation will stabilize and settle down. FYI, I don't disagree with many of the ROAR rules (and of course none of it matters to me now :P) and I'm not a follow-the-crowd ROAR-basher either.
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Old 06-27-2005, 10:41 AM   #57
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Frank - again, darne'd if we do and darn'ed if we don't.

The teams came up with their plan to control their own costs. Simple as that. They chose the tires that will be run 2 weeks later at the WC event in Italy. Good idea.

ROAR rescinded the rule to work on better methods of handout tire rules to avoid the huge financial and staffing burden placed on host tracks.
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Old 06-27-2005, 12:11 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank McKinney
Derek - if you could show up to the RRoC and use any tires, inserts or wheels, how many different sets of Sorex, Ride, Take-Off, HPI, Yokomo, etc., tires will you bring? How many different sets of inserts will you bring? Same thing with wheels - hard, medium or soft? 24mm or 26mm? Once you've decided what works best for you (remember the days of pro racers showing up at a track a week ahead of a big race?) you then get to concentrate on your setup. A spec, pre-glued set of tires, and a limited number at that, keeps your cost as low as possible. Obviously this is all very much "IMHO" I do agree that if you tell the manufacturers now that a rule in a year or two is that tires must last for a full round or whatever, that would get them going on some development. Maybe there could be some way to encourage "real" off-road tracks with loamy dirt, while we're making a wish list

Dawn - no rules organization is going to appease everyone (I've run race series myself for the past several years, just not on the level of ROAR, so I know a bit of your pain) and of course everyone is going to vote for 'their' own perfect system (I raise my hand as a culprit), but with things like the brushlesss motor thing at the recent Nationals and teams coming to an agreement amongst themselves for tires, that doesn't exactly look good for ROAR, does it? Of course now that it's announced there's no backtracking so hopefully the rules or situation will stabilize and settle down. FYI, I don't disagree with many of the ROAR rules (and of course none of it matters to me now :P) and I'm not a follow-the-crowd ROAR-basher either.

To answer that if the rule was the tire had to last the entire weekend...then it would be one or two sets of tires. Get rid of the inserts, and make it have to last. Everybody will be in the same boat and there won't be so many options. I don't understand from a marketing standpoint how eliminating sponsors/advertisers is good for any racing? How many times have I heard that tracks have trouble getting support. We can spec the entire industry but that is asking for racing to end.

Again.

Tires that have to last, no inserts, no "sauce". And to address the weeks of practice beforehand, when is a good time to test? The races that limit total track time and days are the best. I don't see how we have races that last 5 days at this point. Controlled practice Friday, Qualifying Saturday, mains sunday.

If we can have a Satruday series race with 150 racers complete in 1 day with no issues, why can't we have a Nationals in 2?
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Old 06-27-2005, 01:12 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekB
If we can have a Satruday series race with 150 racers complete in 1 day with no issues, why can't we have a Nationals in 2?
Derek - with four rounds of qualifying, resort after two and mains for up to 300 entries for electric and 200 for fuel (off road speaking) it makes more sense to not overload the system and have two days of qualifying (Fri, Sat) and mains on Sunday. I agree .... events are becoming much too long and much too expensive for the average racer/hobbyist and something must be done. I am all in favor, personally, of closing tracks for ROAR nationals to two days prior to racing to allow for controlled practice on Thursday and racing begins Friday.
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Old 06-27-2005, 02:08 PM   #60
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Derek and I don't really agree alot, but I would have to say that I agree with about 98% of what he has said so far.

Since the 'spec' rule came out new tire development has become stagnant and we have seen the same compounds and basically the same tread designs since... With the exception of the R3 Compound from pro-line.

I like the fact that Derek brought up the fuel nat's which do not have a spec tire.... Don't seem to have anyone that has a problem there and the event sold out in less than a week this year... Factory teams don't have "issues" sending tires for their teams to that race??? Doesn't quite make sense to me or maybe I'm missing something.... Drake even had tires that aren't available anymore...

Basically, I have polled factory drivers and the drivers that go to the event that have to pay for their tires... Factory drivers seem to be the only ones that actually want the 'spec' tire in place... Personally, I don't like the spec tire rule, and I have to pay for my tires.... Going to spend alot of money to go to the race anyway....

I think if we want to control costs.... We leave the spec tire out and only allow 1 day of controlled practice on the track.... In other words.... Track is rebuilt the weekend before and NOBODY is allowed on it untill the thursday before qualifying.... Yep....1 day of practice..... It is the same for EVERYONE. CONTROLLED practice only...not open..... This makes it the same for everyone as everyone will have the same exact amount of track time.... at the most a racer only has to have 3 nights of hotel,rental, etc. costs... In the end this saves the racer more than what he spends on the tires...IMO

Last edited by Orange; 06-27-2005 at 02:36 PM.
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