The perfect RC tire

Reply

Old 01-23-2013, 09:48 AM
  #1  
Tech Adept
Thread Starter
 
STRINGCHEESE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Waterford, Michigan
Posts: 237
Default The perfect RC tire

I've been dreaming this up for a long time. I think my logic is sound and my idea would revolutionize rc tires....RADIALS

What if we had radials, most likely nylon radials, in our tires? They wouldn't balloon out, we would be able to run higher sidewalls to keep our wheels from taking hard hits and cracking. There would always be more surface area on the ground. We could run different profile tires (round, square), different sidewall heights, and different wheel diameters for different conditions. Foams wouldn't be as important for performance.

I think this is the next revolution for our modern ultra fast toy cars. I believe our outdated tire technology is the weak spot in RC performance. The biggest jump in rc tires in the past 20 years was what??? Closed cell foam?

Remember those little bleeder air valves on the air-hogs toys? How about some nice air bladders, micro pressure guages, and mini sized tire pumps.

Imagine...no more tire glue. Building beads into the next generation wheels and tires. Now the air pressure holds the tires on the wheel. This could lead to awesome wheels that we could use for multiple tires and fast tire changes between heats using the same wheel. Just let the air out, change the tire, put air back in.

STRINGCHEESE is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 10:05 AM
  #2  
Tech Fanatic
iTrader: (16)
 
McD44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Kalamazoo
Posts: 785
Trader Rating: 16 (100%+)
Default

One of the problems you'd face would be the extremely low tire pressures you would run in offroad. It would be tough to both hold the tire on the wheel and prevent the wheel from spinning within the tire at those low pressures. Another hurdle would be the increased weight and rotating mass of the new wheels and tires which would change the handling drastically.

I like where you're going with this though. Perhaps just starting with adding radial belting to traditional tires would be a good start. I mean from the MFG's end, not just duct taping your tires LOL.
McD44 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 10:07 AM
  #3  
Tech Elite
iTrader: (5)
 
Hoese37's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Hutchinson, MN
Posts: 3,819
Trader Rating: 5 (100%+)
Default

Couple reasons. Tires would get expensive. Youd have to have multiple tires of the same tread to change the shape. rims would be spendy. All sorts of spendy misc tools would be needed.
Hoese37 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 10:11 AM
  #4  
Tech Adept
Thread Starter
 
STRINGCHEESE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Waterford, Michigan
Posts: 237
Default

Originally Posted by McD44 View Post
One of the problems you'd face would be the extremely low tire pressures you would run in offroad. It would be tough to both hold the tire on the wheel and prevent the wheel from spinning within the tire at those low pressures. Another hurdle would be the increased weight and rotating mass of the new wheels and tires which would change the handling drastically.

I like where you're going with this though. Perhaps just starting with adding radial belting to traditional tires would be a good start. I mean from the MFG's end, not just duct taping your tires LOL.
I run 3 psi on my quad and the tires stay on at 70 mph?

I think that if the bead is designed a little deeper into the wheel and the bladders are black rubber, there shouldn't be any problem keeping a tire on at the half to maybe two lbs of pressure we would have to run.
STRINGCHEESE is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 10:19 AM
  #5  
Suspended
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: In the Mitten. 17 miles south of the D
Posts: 211
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

info.. they already have a radial tire for short course nd a few other sizes..
True bead locks.like we ran back in the early 90's
as for mini valves they have those already..along with low pressure pumps

ur saying pricey heck .. I already have a hex bit set that ran me $125..
and i spend about $80 a month on NEW tires every month I race in the winter..

Great ideas hope to see it occur ..

as for more mass moving ..gotta remember thats below the center of gravity so it will not affect US in any way..it will keep many from traction rolling..

just my 5 cents worth
hpikillr is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 10:22 AM
  #6  
Tech Adept
Thread Starter
 
STRINGCHEESE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Waterford, Michigan
Posts: 237
Default

Originally Posted by Hoese37 View Post
Couple reasons. Tires would get expensive. Youd have to have multiple tires of the same tread to change the shape. rims would be spendy. All sorts of spendy misc tools would be needed.
Yes, and no. Tire glue is not cheap, a new set of wheels, tires, and good foams is not cheap. I know you can soak wheels or bake them and re use them, but most of the time they're junked, for me anyway.

Yes, the wheels could be more $$$, but most likely not too much more. But, with radials, we could have higher sidewalls, and could definately have tires that stuck out past the edge of the wheel. This would mean the wheel itself would not take near the punishment as they do now. Especially on buggys. For example, look at the wheel of a SCT, the outside of the wheel with lots of sidewall almost always looks new, the inside gets beat hard and cracks and stuff. Foams would be a thing of the past, the tire tube would last a very long time, if it was made right.
The guages, pumps, and chuck fittings already exist in the medical industries. So the idea is not too far fetched. If I had the ability, I would produce these.

STRINGCHEESE is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 10:29 AM
  #7  
Tech Adept
Thread Starter
 
STRINGCHEESE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Waterford, Michigan
Posts: 237
Default

Originally Posted by hpikillr View Post
info.. they already have a radial tire for short course nd a few other sizes..
True bead locks.like we ran back in the early 90's
as for mini valves they have those already..along with low pressure pumps

ur saying pricey heck .. I already have a hex bit set that ran me $125..
and i spend about $80 a month on NEW tires every month I race in the winter..

Great ideas hope to see it occur ..

as for more mass moving ..gotta remember thats below the center of gravity so it will not affect US in any way..it will keep many from traction rolling..

just my 5 cents worth
Who makes radials?

I'm not saying bead locks. In my opinion they are junk for rc racing (I remember 3 piece wheels). Cool on some monster trucks though. I am talking real actual tire beads, like on your car, but more like on a dirt bike. There would be a channel inside the wheel and a lug around the tire that fit into that channel.

The tire tube would hold the tire's bead into the wheel's groove with air pressure and friction. Exactly the same as a dirtbike. As applied to tiny rc tires, the bead would have to be deep in the wheel and fairly bulky on the tire (very high friction) so we could run very, very low air pressures. But who knows, we could end up running 10 lbs or more of pressure?

STRINGCHEESE is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 10:41 AM
  #8  
Tech Elite
iTrader: (10)
 
rcjunky1's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 2,192
Trader Rating: 10 (100%+)
Default

the tire won't have enough flex, on dirt you want the tires flexable to use the foam to tune, its done that way because its easier, otherwise the manuafacturer would need to make 10 differant tires with the same tread/rubber compound, its just not practical and would increasse the cost of racing.
rcjunky1 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 10:49 AM
  #9  
Tech Addict
iTrader: (17)
 
carcrusher46's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: the 'burgh
Posts: 648
Trader Rating: 17 (100%+)
Default

I want to say I saw a pneumatic tire in RCCA about 10 or so years ago, and it's been tried a few times since. All in all, they were absolute garbage and were horrible for handling.

Keep in mind that while our vehicles are scale replicas, they are not scale in terms of weight and other factors.

HPI has made radial touring car tires for years - they still mount with glue on standard rims, but they exist. They're also significantly more expensive (almost 2x) than standard TC tires and don't offer any more tread life.

If you want a friction-based bead system, remember that it almost instantly makes the tire more difficult to place on the rim without specialized equipment on a one-piece rim. Bead material is very, very strong (very hard rubber reinforced with metal cords running through) and is generally not flexible enough to be bent into a radius small enough for RC tires while still being strong enough to withstand the lateral forces of the tire with such a low pressure required to secure adequate handling characteristics.

In short - if it worked, someone would have succeeded with it by now, because it's been tried in various applications before and it's just not a viable solution.
carcrusher46 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 10:49 AM
  #10  
Tech Adept
iTrader: (1)
 
HobbytownGBW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 167
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

HPI has made belted radial RC car tires for years. I have a set of them for and SC truck. They are heavy, and have very little flex. It was supposed to be revolutionary for rubber tire touring car, but when they came out with them there weren't any rubber tire classes, and everyone ran foam tires anyway.
HobbytownGBW is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 11:14 AM
  #11  
Tech Adept
Thread Starter
 
STRINGCHEESE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Waterford, Michigan
Posts: 237
Default

Originally Posted by rcjunky1 View Post
the tire won't have enough flex, on dirt you want the tires flexable to use the foam to tune, its done that way because its easier, otherwise the manuafacturer would need to make 10 differant tires with the same tread/rubber compound, its just not practical and would increasse the cost of racing.
How do you figure?

Flex would come from sidewall height, a higher sidewall would flex side to side more than a shorter one. Two wheel sizes would probably be enough to cover any terrain we race on. Tuning with foam would be a thing of the past, just run more or less air. Easy.

I know this will eventually come up so lets talk about tire bounce. A pneumatic tire will bounce more than a tire with foams. But, having radials makes a tire bounce less. With the release of radial tires in the off road ATV world, the big baloon "bouncy" tires were replaced with radials, and stiffer, more predictable suspension. The better handling of the new atv radials is especially noticeable on fast atv's at high speeds.

Let's look at car tires. They all have radials of some type. Higher performance sports car tires have stiff radials, with multiple steel or kevlar belts. Big truck tires use more nylon and are made to be softer in the middle so they "give" when used on bumpy, rocky terrain for more traction. All of this could easily be applied to toy cars, and I personally think it would be huge.

I know it will make for better tires and lap times. I'm just hoping someone with the means will pick up on this idea and run with it. If I had a tire mold in my living room, I'd take a few feet of nylon string, untwist it, wrap it around the mold, put a drop of CA on it to keep it from unraveling, inject some rubber into it and see what happened. If it helt together, I'd progress to braided nylon strips, then start making my wheel designs and testing. Radial tire technology is tried and tested in everything else on earth with tires. Finding ways to apply it to RC is really very academic. I would think that a tire manufacturer could go from plan to production in a relatively short amount of time.

STRINGCHEESE is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 11:14 AM
  #12  
Tech Elite
iTrader: (14)
 
gticlay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,083
Trader Rating: 14 (100%+)
Default

Bicycles run tubeless tires with a liquid sealant. They have a kevlar flexible bead. They also cost $70-$90 each
gticlay is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 11:25 AM
  #13  
Tech Adept
Thread Starter
 
STRINGCHEESE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Waterford, Michigan
Posts: 237
Default

Originally Posted by carcrusher46 View Post
I want to say I saw a pneumatic tire in RCCA about 10 or so years ago, and it's been tried a few times since. All in all, they were absolute garbage and were horrible for handling.

Keep in mind that while our vehicles are scale replicas, they are not scale in terms of weight and other factors.

HPI has made radial touring car tires for years - they still mount with glue on standard rims, but they exist. They're also significantly more expensive (almost 2x) than standard TC tires and don't offer any more tread life.

If you want a friction-based bead system, remember that it almost instantly makes the tire more difficult to place on the rim without specialized equipment on a one-piece rim. Bead material is very, very strong (very hard rubber reinforced with metal cords running through) and is generally not flexible enough to be bent into a radius small enough for RC tires while still being strong enough to withstand the lateral forces of the tire with such a low pressure required to secure adequate handling characteristics.

In short - if it worked, someone would have succeeded with it by now, because it's been tried in various applications before and it's just not a viable solution.
I was thinking a fat bead, much like the one we glue into a channel now, but set it deep (maybe 1/4") into the wheel with a square groove. With the tire tube set atop of the bead.

We don't have nearly the forces generated (in even a go cart with an 8" wheel) to need steel reinforcement. Nylon or polyester radials on the tread would be enough. Sidewalls would need to be thin, similar to a SCT outer sidewall, maybe thinner. Tire tubes could also be clear polyester (flexable..maybe polypropelene) type material to keep the weight down. Dual action plastic valves (5mm) with a pin valve (like on your car) but also with a screw off (out) top to let air out is what I am invisioning.


***edit*** As far as cost, I am sure they would be more, but I think that in the long run, we would save money, or at least brake even, on foam and wheel cost, especially when applied to 1:8 buggies and truggies (where I consequently think the technology would need to start at, and make the most difference in performance at).

Last edited by STRINGCHEESE; 01-23-2013 at 12:02 PM.
STRINGCHEESE is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 07:20 AM
  #14  
Tech Adept
Thread Starter
 
STRINGCHEESE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Waterford, Michigan
Posts: 237
Default

I just looked at the HPI line of tires, admittedly I have never considered HPI tires for racing. The SCT tire they offer that is belted is the only one I see that could possibly be used for racing, perhaps on a 4x4 SCT on a very loamy track. But it is not a tire I'd grab first.

A pneumatic tire isn't really what I am wanting to see, although it could maybe work some day.

What I want to see are popular racing tires like BK bars, Double Dees, Ions, City blocks, or Bowties with radial belts.
STRINGCHEESE is offline  
Reply With Quote

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service