Trinity D3.5 17.5 deemed illegal by ROAR
01-18-2013, 11:44 AM
#2
A total load of crap.
So they initially used one set of tools to measure ALL motors from a year ago, and they all passed (because its only SO accurate). So these other motor companies complain that the d3.5 is too good, so ROAR goes back a YEAR later, with a DIFFERENT tool to measure the wire, to find that it is just the tiniest bit too wide with THIS tool... and then clasify the motor as not legal? If that's the case, ROAR needs to remeasure EVERY motor that was originally deamed legal with it's original measuring equipment.
They keep using the phrase "in the spirit of keeping things fair", yet they measure the one motor with different tools, that measure differently or more accurately, than the others?... what a load.
So they initially used one set of tools to measure ALL motors from a year ago, and they all passed (because its only SO accurate). So these other motor companies complain that the d3.5 is too good, so ROAR goes back a YEAR later, with a DIFFERENT tool to measure the wire, to find that it is just the tiniest bit too wide with THIS tool... and then clasify the motor as not legal? If that's the case, ROAR needs to remeasure EVERY motor that was originally deamed legal with it's original measuring equipment.
They keep using the phrase "in the spirit of keeping things fair", yet they measure the one motor with different tools, that measure differently or more accurately, than the others?... what a load.
01-18-2013, 11:50 AM
#4
Tech Initiate
So let me get this straight... ROAR set the measurement standard and maximum of wire diameter of any given motor then measured it with tools incapable of accurately measuring that tolerance then passed the trinity, after complaints re measured it with a more accurate tool and now its banned? so should they not call into suspect every other motor and re review its specs.
01-18-2013, 11:50 AM
#5
Honestly i dont race in any ROAR races so its kind of inrevelent to me about this . But im not susprised though.
01-18-2013, 11:50 AM
#6
Tech Legend
iTrader: (51)
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A total load of crap.
So they initially used one set of tools to measure ALL motors from a year ago, and they all passed (because its only SO accurate). So these other motor companies complain that the d3.5 is too good, so ROAR goes back a YEAR later, with a DIFFERENT tool to measure the wire, to find that it is just the tiniest bit too wide with THIS tool... and then clasify the motor as not legal? If that's the case, ROAR needs to remeasure EVERY motor that was originally deamed legal with it's original measuring equipment.
They keep using the phrase "in the spirit of keeping things fair", yet they measure the one motor with different tools, that measure differently or more accurately, than the others?... what a load.
So they initially used one set of tools to measure ALL motors from a year ago, and they all passed (because its only SO accurate). So these other motor companies complain that the d3.5 is too good, so ROAR goes back a YEAR later, with a DIFFERENT tool to measure the wire, to find that it is just the tiniest bit too wide with THIS tool... and then clasify the motor as not legal? If that's the case, ROAR needs to remeasure EVERY motor that was originally deamed legal with it's original measuring equipment.
They keep using the phrase "in the spirit of keeping things fair", yet they measure the one motor with different tools, that measure differently or more accurately, than the others?... what a load.
01-18-2013, 11:52 AM
#9
D3.5 Response from Trinity Epic
"Dear Partners and Customers:
At roughly 10pm last evening I received an email from Steve Pond who I believe now is the Secretary of ROAR saying that the D3.5 (17.5 spec motor) is being removed from the ROAR list effective immediately. Please see press release shown on the ROAR website below (it is a little confusing because it implies that the entire D3.5 is in question but upon reading further it is only the 17.5 spec motor)
Approval status of Trinity D3.5 and D3.5-based OEM motors
After a great deal of consideration the ROAR Executive Committee has determined that the Trinity D3.5 motor and others based on the D3.5, do not comply with the organization’s required specifications for motors in the 17.5 stock class. The determination is based on the fact that motors being sold are built with wire that’s larger than maximum specification permitted. All of the random samples of the D3.5 based motors during the announced compliance checks tested with wire that’s larger than the maximum dimension. Rule 8.8.4.3.1 states clearly that “The three slotted stator must be wound with 17.5 turns of 2 strands of a maximum diameter of 20AWG or 0.813 mm per slot. A diameter of .813mm is the nominal measurement of 20AWG wire, and that it is the stated maximum wire diameter permitted. It’s on this basis that the Executive Committee made its determination.
This entry was posted on Thursday, January 17th, 2013 at 11:20 pm and is filed under Approval News,
Trinity's position on this is as follows:
1) We built a brushless motor to the specifications and rules R.O.A.R. gives us and every other motor builder. The rules are not perfect like most any rule made. But Trinity followed the "letter of the law",
2) We have several issues here:
A) The rule reads 17.5 turns of 2 strands of a maximum diameter of 20AWG or 0.813mm per slot. A diameter of .813mm is the nominal measurement of 20AWG wire, and that it is the stated maximum wire diameter permitted. It’s on this basis that the Executive Committee made its determination.
Problem 1: There is no tolerance mentioned anywhere in this rule. It is literally impossible to manufacture any product today, especially in China with a zero tolerance. We have supplied letters from our motor company to ROAR saying that the 20AWG that we use is compliant with their rule and every copper wire that is manufactured throughout the world "has some tolerance". ROAR says wire companies do not use any tolerance and make everything EXACT. Are we to be lead to believe that a Chinese or American wire company that has produced wire slightly larger or smaller in size "in this present world economy" is then "melting it down or throwing it away" This is not practical. It is also not practical to have any rule with zero tolerance!
Problem 2: The above rule is confusing and can be misinterpreted because it was not written correctly. You choose either .813mm or 20AWG....
We chose 20AWG wire which are motor company in China ordered and supplied ROAR with the necessary amount of samples, in the same manner Trinity and every other motor manufacturer operates. We paid for the sample motors and paid the ROAR approval fees (in excess of a thousand dollars). We then wait (like every other motor company for either an approval or an issue). If we receive the approval, we then start the production of motors, just like every other motor manufacturer.
Problem 3: We were issued an approval for the D3.5 (17.5) in April of 2012 and released the first batch of D3.5 spec motors in the R.O.A.R. pipeline and have been selling these motors for over TEN (10) months.......
Problem 4: ROAR has confirmed that they have tested recent motors, through spot-checks as well as the "original samples" that are archived at ROAR (like every other motor manufacturer) and they have concluded that the motors have never been changed by Trinity since the initial approval
Problem 5: ROAR faced a number of competing motor manufacturer's with complaints about the motor and ROAR then purchased what they say...."more sophisticated measuring equipment to test motors" than what was available when they tested Trinity and every other motor submitted for the past several years.
Problem 6: They are now determining that they feel our motor (17.5) does not meet their specification and have pulled this "ONE MOTOR" 17.5 Spec off the list with no warning, no grace period and no discussion with the manufacturer.
Our position here is "WE HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG" and this obviously can "ARBITRARILY HAPPEN AGAIN" to any one of you if your competitors yell loud enough. WE DID NOTHING WRONG. WE COMPLIED TO THEIR SPEC, PAID THEIR FEES, WENT THROUGH THEIR APPROVAL PROCESS, MADE THE D3.5 MORE AVAILABLE TO MORE SOURCES THAN ALL THE OTHER MOTOR MANUFACTURER'S COMBINED!
How do we go forward and our concerns:
A) Our main concern is that this is an "ARBITRARY DECISION" ROAR made due to increased pressure from outside manufacturer's (who should have nothing to do with running the organization). This is a MAJOR CONFLICT OF INTEREST
ROAR is assuming NO RESPONSIBILITY for APPROVING THIS MOTOR AND ALLOWING PEOPLE TO BUY THIS FOR OVER 10 MONTHS WHEN WE CHANGED ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FROM THE ORIGINAL APPROVAL
C) ROAR has shown no responsibility for clubs and organizers, distributors, dealers and consumers who purchased this motor "BASED ON THEIE APPROVAL" since they run their establishments on ROAR rules.
D) ROAR has offered NO SOLUTION TO THE MATTER other than they are possibly working a new spec for a motor but have no details or information about this.
In closing I am hoping to speak with the new ROAR President at some point today to go over these points and to see what if anything can be resolved. This press release is just to inform you of what is happening and my promise to you that we will not allow our company, our partners (OEM'S) and our customers suffer without a fight if a "realistic solution can be reached". We are seeking relief from this ruling for the following indisputable reasons:
1) We were granted ROAR approval by Bob Ingersol, The ROAR technical director and the ROAR Executive and ROAR has confirmed we have not changed the motor since it was approved 10 Months AGO!
2) ROAR saying they have purchased new equipment which obviously changes the way they approve motors is no concern of ours....it is just a confirmation that they feel their approval process was not up to the task. This is not the fault of any motor manufacturer who complied to ROAR's approval rules
3) This is an arbitrary decision with no solution given due to increased pressure from competing manufactures (WHICH IS A MAJOR CONFLICT OF INTEREST) if several parties can exert this type of pressure over a volunteer organization.
Again I am hoping some peaceful and realistic resolution for all parties can be reached quickly. Trinity does not want to seek an immediate injunction or relief from this 'ruling" and force it to be decided in the courts system.
I thank-you for listening and for your continued support for Trinity.
Thanks..Ernie"
"Dear Partners and Customers:
At roughly 10pm last evening I received an email from Steve Pond who I believe now is the Secretary of ROAR saying that the D3.5 (17.5 spec motor) is being removed from the ROAR list effective immediately. Please see press release shown on the ROAR website below (it is a little confusing because it implies that the entire D3.5 is in question but upon reading further it is only the 17.5 spec motor)
Approval status of Trinity D3.5 and D3.5-based OEM motors
After a great deal of consideration the ROAR Executive Committee has determined that the Trinity D3.5 motor and others based on the D3.5, do not comply with the organization’s required specifications for motors in the 17.5 stock class. The determination is based on the fact that motors being sold are built with wire that’s larger than maximum specification permitted. All of the random samples of the D3.5 based motors during the announced compliance checks tested with wire that’s larger than the maximum dimension. Rule 8.8.4.3.1 states clearly that “The three slotted stator must be wound with 17.5 turns of 2 strands of a maximum diameter of 20AWG or 0.813 mm per slot. A diameter of .813mm is the nominal measurement of 20AWG wire, and that it is the stated maximum wire diameter permitted. It’s on this basis that the Executive Committee made its determination.
This entry was posted on Thursday, January 17th, 2013 at 11:20 pm and is filed under Approval News,
Trinity's position on this is as follows:
1) We built a brushless motor to the specifications and rules R.O.A.R. gives us and every other motor builder. The rules are not perfect like most any rule made. But Trinity followed the "letter of the law",
2) We have several issues here:
A) The rule reads 17.5 turns of 2 strands of a maximum diameter of 20AWG or 0.813mm per slot. A diameter of .813mm is the nominal measurement of 20AWG wire, and that it is the stated maximum wire diameter permitted. It’s on this basis that the Executive Committee made its determination.
Problem 1: There is no tolerance mentioned anywhere in this rule. It is literally impossible to manufacture any product today, especially in China with a zero tolerance. We have supplied letters from our motor company to ROAR saying that the 20AWG that we use is compliant with their rule and every copper wire that is manufactured throughout the world "has some tolerance". ROAR says wire companies do not use any tolerance and make everything EXACT. Are we to be lead to believe that a Chinese or American wire company that has produced wire slightly larger or smaller in size "in this present world economy" is then "melting it down or throwing it away" This is not practical. It is also not practical to have any rule with zero tolerance!
Problem 2: The above rule is confusing and can be misinterpreted because it was not written correctly. You choose either .813mm or 20AWG....
We chose 20AWG wire which are motor company in China ordered and supplied ROAR with the necessary amount of samples, in the same manner Trinity and every other motor manufacturer operates. We paid for the sample motors and paid the ROAR approval fees (in excess of a thousand dollars). We then wait (like every other motor company for either an approval or an issue). If we receive the approval, we then start the production of motors, just like every other motor manufacturer.
Problem 3: We were issued an approval for the D3.5 (17.5) in April of 2012 and released the first batch of D3.5 spec motors in the R.O.A.R. pipeline and have been selling these motors for over TEN (10) months.......
Problem 4: ROAR has confirmed that they have tested recent motors, through spot-checks as well as the "original samples" that are archived at ROAR (like every other motor manufacturer) and they have concluded that the motors have never been changed by Trinity since the initial approval
Problem 5: ROAR faced a number of competing motor manufacturer's with complaints about the motor and ROAR then purchased what they say...."more sophisticated measuring equipment to test motors" than what was available when they tested Trinity and every other motor submitted for the past several years.
Problem 6: They are now determining that they feel our motor (17.5) does not meet their specification and have pulled this "ONE MOTOR" 17.5 Spec off the list with no warning, no grace period and no discussion with the manufacturer.
Our position here is "WE HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG" and this obviously can "ARBITRARILY HAPPEN AGAIN" to any one of you if your competitors yell loud enough. WE DID NOTHING WRONG. WE COMPLIED TO THEIR SPEC, PAID THEIR FEES, WENT THROUGH THEIR APPROVAL PROCESS, MADE THE D3.5 MORE AVAILABLE TO MORE SOURCES THAN ALL THE OTHER MOTOR MANUFACTURER'S COMBINED!
How do we go forward and our concerns:
A) Our main concern is that this is an "ARBITRARY DECISION" ROAR made due to increased pressure from outside manufacturer's (who should have nothing to do with running the organization). This is a MAJOR CONFLICT OF INTEREST
ROAR is assuming NO RESPONSIBILITY for APPROVING THIS MOTOR AND ALLOWING PEOPLE TO BUY THIS FOR OVER 10 MONTHS WHEN WE CHANGED ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FROM THE ORIGINAL APPROVAL
C) ROAR has shown no responsibility for clubs and organizers, distributors, dealers and consumers who purchased this motor "BASED ON THEIE APPROVAL" since they run their establishments on ROAR rules.
D) ROAR has offered NO SOLUTION TO THE MATTER other than they are possibly working a new spec for a motor but have no details or information about this.
In closing I am hoping to speak with the new ROAR President at some point today to go over these points and to see what if anything can be resolved. This press release is just to inform you of what is happening and my promise to you that we will not allow our company, our partners (OEM'S) and our customers suffer without a fight if a "realistic solution can be reached". We are seeking relief from this ruling for the following indisputable reasons:
1) We were granted ROAR approval by Bob Ingersol, The ROAR technical director and the ROAR Executive and ROAR has confirmed we have not changed the motor since it was approved 10 Months AGO!
2) ROAR saying they have purchased new equipment which obviously changes the way they approve motors is no concern of ours....it is just a confirmation that they feel their approval process was not up to the task. This is not the fault of any motor manufacturer who complied to ROAR's approval rules
3) This is an arbitrary decision with no solution given due to increased pressure from competing manufactures (WHICH IS A MAJOR CONFLICT OF INTEREST) if several parties can exert this type of pressure over a volunteer organization.
Again I am hoping some peaceful and realistic resolution for all parties can be reached quickly. Trinity does not want to seek an immediate injunction or relief from this 'ruling" and force it to be decided in the courts system.
I thank-you for listening and for your continued support for Trinity.
Thanks..Ernie"
01-18-2013, 11:52 AM
#10
A total load of crap.
So they initially used one set of tools to measure ALL motors from a year ago, and they all passed (because its only SO accurate). So these other motor companies complain that the d3.5 is too good, so ROAR goes back a YEAR later, with a DIFFERENT tool to measure the wire, to find that it is just the tiniest bit too wide with THIS tool... and then clasify the motor as not legal? If that's the case, ROAR needs to remeasure EVERY motor that was originally deamed legal with it's original measuring equipment.
They keep using the phrase "in the spirit of keeping things fair", yet they measure the one motor with different tools, that measure differently or more accurately, than the others?... what a load.
So they initially used one set of tools to measure ALL motors from a year ago, and they all passed (because its only SO accurate). So these other motor companies complain that the d3.5 is too good, so ROAR goes back a YEAR later, with a DIFFERENT tool to measure the wire, to find that it is just the tiniest bit too wide with THIS tool... and then clasify the motor as not legal? If that's the case, ROAR needs to remeasure EVERY motor that was originally deamed legal with it's original measuring equipment.
They keep using the phrase "in the spirit of keeping things fair", yet they measure the one motor with different tools, that measure differently or more accurately, than the others?... what a load.
Yea that does sound pretty bogus . But il buy the motor to try out like i said i dont race at tracks with ROAR rules.
01-18-2013, 11:54 AM
#12
SPEC RACING
His motor is faster , no wait his battery , no , his ESC ?
Ha Ha Ha , one thing for sure , Stock is not the same power or even close to equal power .....
We have to ask our selves , when a new 17.5 is released and even faster then all the others..
How is that helping keep spec racing equal & fair ?
Open the class's I say and lets start racing each other.
Personally tried of my buddy's staying in spec & never getting to race with them ...
His motor is faster , no wait his battery , no , his ESC ?
Ha Ha Ha , one thing for sure , Stock is not the same power or even close to equal power .....
We have to ask our selves , when a new 17.5 is released and even faster then all the others..
How is that helping keep spec racing equal & fair ?
Open the class's I say and lets start racing each other.
Personally tried of my buddy's staying in spec & never getting to race with them ...
01-18-2013, 11:54 AM
#13
Tech Legend
iTrader: (51)
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Castle Mamba Max Pro. Feel its power!!!!!!!!!!
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Can't because of legal issues to come. In the end ROAR will win this and pushing your weight around won't work this time. It will all come out eventually and opinions will be a lot different. Its ashame someone is trying to pull and Lance Armstrong on the consumer.
01-18-2013, 11:55 AM
#15
I seriously believe ROAR has lost its mind. They should set a better standard like instead of tearing down motors this and that, cap it via a dyno. Measure the avg hp of all motors, fix a limit and get done with it.
At our winter series folks are going bat hit crazy. A guy with the orion wins all the time (no ways is a 3.5 an unfair advantage), but a lot of people have picked up brand new 3.5s which is money down the drain. Thats the reason I don't race stock cos of this load of crock.
At our winter series folks are going bat hit crazy. A guy with the orion wins all the time (no ways is a 3.5 an unfair advantage), but a lot of people have picked up brand new 3.5s which is money down the drain. Thats the reason I don't race stock cos of this load of crock.