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Old 01-27-2015, 04:01 AM   #6721
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Originally Posted by 001casey View Post
How about this Xray? Design a "symmetrical" RR toe block for the XB4 15, give it a different part number and call it an option part. That way you may be able to make some money and possibly keep some customers coming back. I have never seen so many ridiculous excuses made to justify a mistake. The cost associated to make good now will be far cheaper than the cost of loss of business down the track.
Please do the right thing.
Well said +1
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Old 01-27-2015, 04:05 AM   #6722
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Hi all
Spent a bit of time tonight measuring several different ways to see how much my cars rear toe block is out. The most accurate method I found was to put the car on 19mm blocks. Remove the rear shocks. Measure with straight edge of the rear hubs that have the DE setup wheels. Measurement were taken from steering hub pivot screw to the straight edge. I checked these measurements several times. Turned the setup wheels several times incase they were buckled. And always applied pressure on the straight edge on the rear axle point. Each time I ended up with the same results. 7mm on the left and 12mm on the right. That's a difference of 5mm. To put it in perspective to those that think that's not much... These are 1/10th buggies. You times 5mm by 10 and you get 50mm (2 inches for our American friends). Put that on a real car and see what happens...
X Ray calls its products luxury and made in Europe. You promote your product as superior to the south East Asian competitors. You charge more for your premium product.
Your customers have a right to expect kits pretty close to perfection then!
Enough with the excuses and time to come good...





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Old 01-27-2015, 04:23 AM   #6723
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So let me get this straight...instead of making a correct bulkhead to account for the so called manufacturing tolerances you decided it was best to offset the mounting holes in the rear hanger? A SINGLE hanger???? Because apparently only the rear has issues but the front doesn't??? Why not offset the front as well? And you don't think offsetting the holes creates additional problems? Look I'm not mad they are asymmetrical . I understand things can go wrong in the manufacturing process. What I'm pissed about is the explanation given. Here we have X-ray constantly touting their precision in house manufacuring process while companies like Team Associated who has their kits manufactured in China don't seem to have an issue making symmetrical hangers. Ill still drive the buggy but I refuse to pick up whatever garbage you are throwing down right now.
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Old 01-27-2015, 05:01 AM   #6724
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Ok guys I finally had time to take some measurements on the CMM with different combinations of inserts. I also measured the distance to the centerline of the mount insert pockets. It was worse than I originally thought. All measurements are to the centerline of the chassis. Here's what I found:

Inner hinge pin angles with 0 inserts:
Left 2.73 degrees
Right 3.60 degrees

Inner hinge pin angles with 0 insert right side and .5 insert out on left side:
Left 3.22 degrees
Right 3.60 degrees

Inner hinge pin angles 0 insert left side .5 in on right side:
Left 2.73 degrees
Right 3.08 degrees

Inner hinge pin angles 0 insert right side 1 insert out left side:
Left 3.69
Right 3.60

Centerline of chassis to centerline of insert mount pockets no inserts:
Left .9004"
Right .9280"

Offset of pockets to centerline of chassis:
.0138" towards right side.

I measured my mount at .010" offset with calipers, but looks like the holes in the case are also offset about .004" No bueno.
That is what I was getting at about the conflict of what we had been discussing so far. I know that zeros gave you 3 deg, but with a full degreee difference between sides. So it did not make sense that only using (1) .5 deg insert difference would get them symmetrical, and these new measurements confirm that, so thank you for taking the time. What this shows is that, in order to get as close to even as possible, you in fact need to use a 1 deg difference in inserts, which now jives with your original measurement of 2.5/3.5 with the zeros.
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Old 01-27-2015, 05:15 AM   #6725
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Please understand that many factors influence the overall toe setting including the uprights/steering block holes, wheel hex hub tolerances and their natural play or even the lower diff bulkhead screws tolerances and the way these screws are mounted to the bulkhead from bottom of the chassis. All these factors were taken into consideration and the suspension holders designed appropriately so at the end when the car is fully assembled and put on a set-up system such as HUDY Set-up System that the left and right toe are within the tolerance same.

As mentioned the tolerances and purpose play of the parts result in a variation of measuring results. It is enough when a cusotmer will dismount the diff bulkhead, changes the screws and tighten them in a different order to the chassis and the final toe due the sum of tolerances and tension forces in the composite parts may create a 0.1-0.2 difference from previous measuring.

Finally these tolerances have been very same from the very first XB4 which has been used successfuly by the team around the world.
BS!
Like it was already discussed, your Hudy setup station measures the toe of one wheel in relation to the other, not in relation to the centerline of the car! Like the great example somebody already posted, you could mount the rear end sideways, or at a 45 deg angle, and still come up with those same measurements on the Hudy setup station, it does not mean that both sides are even. I would not care about a .1-.2 deg tolerance if both sides were even, BUT THEY ARE NOT!

With all of this mumbo jumbo trying to justify why the brace is offset, then why is everything else on the car almost perfectly symmetrical, INCLUDING THE OTHER 3 TOE BLOCKS! NOWHERE ELSE on the car is a part "intentionally" built asymmetrical to "compensate" for "screw tightening" or "molds cooling" etc.

Even if it was adjusted for tightening screws etc., you yourself just said it is enough to affect it .1-.2 deg, this is a FULL DEGREE difference, caused ENTIRELY by you building one toe block "intentionally" offset from the other!

In case you haven't noticed, many of us here are pretty intelligent and mechanically inclined, and have enough confidence in our real world experience that your smoke and mirror technique just makes you look bad. Put your Hudy setup station aside, and just look at the car with a fresh set of eyes, the issue is obvious!
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Old 01-27-2015, 05:25 AM   #6726
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I HOPE that one of the aftermarket companies will jump on this and provide a proper rear hanger for the XB4 (seems like a good opportunity).

As for XRAY... their response and approach to handling this situation will certainly way heavily in my next purchase decision as to whether or not I would even consider XRAY.
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Old 01-27-2015, 05:34 AM   #6727
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Regarding the diff outdrives, these were updated to improve the strength and reliability. Extra material was added to the outdrives to certain areas which shortened the opening in the outdrives. To keep the same suspension holders and not make new ones with different suspension positions it is suggested to use middle and outer positions for the suspension pins.
Meanwhile, they are clearly shown as options in the manual, and the basic clay setup that is directly linked as a download from your page on the car SUGGESTS to use them, but now your saying otherwise? Aren't you marketing the car based on adjustability? And you're also saying "to keep the same suspension holder and not make new ones", but YOU DID MAKE A NEW ONE!(+2mm) This suspension holder IS updated, along with the outdrives, so that is certainly no justification either.
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Xray XB4 thread-sam_0595.jpg   Xray XB4 thread-sam_0572.jpg  
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Old 01-27-2015, 05:36 AM   #6728
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Originally Posted by slakr View Post
I HOPE that one of the aftermarket companies will jump on this and provide a proper rear hanger for the XB4 (seems like a good opportunity).

As for XRAY... their response and approach to handling this situation will certainly way heavily in my next purchase decision as to whether or not I would even consider XRAY.
Personally, I hope I find another car that I will be happy with, so I can ditch Xray altogether. Their responses are just ridiculous, as though we're just going to buy whatever they say because the have a "legendary Attention to Detail"
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Old 01-27-2015, 06:20 AM   #6729
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+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.
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Old 01-27-2015, 06:26 AM   #6730
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Maybe we should post our requests for XRAY to address this issue to their FB page?

https://www.facebook.com/TeamXray/
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Old 01-27-2015, 06:50 AM   #6731
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Maybe we should post our requests for XRAY to address this issue to their FB page?

https://www.facebook.com/TeamXray/
Done, also copied and pasted the comment with the link to this page in a couple other posts on there, feel free to do the same....lets make others aware of this then maybe they'll take us seriously.
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Old 01-27-2015, 06:58 AM   #6732
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Done, also copied and pasted the comment with the link to this page in a couple other posts on there, feel free to do the same....lets make others aware of this then maybe they'll take us seriously.
"LIKED" and added a comment to your FB post.
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Old 01-27-2015, 07:16 AM   #6733
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'13, '14 and '15 car the fronts are interchangeable left to right.
None of the cars have interchangeable rear arms left to right.
Ok thanks everyone!
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Old 01-27-2015, 07:21 AM   #6734
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"LIKED" and added a comment to your FB post.
Spread the word lol.
Mistakes happen. Losi had soft diff pins in the first Ten SCTE, they sent hardened ones to anybody who asked, for free. Tekno's first run of EB48's had wear issues on outdrives, they made new ones immediately and at least gave everybody a 50% discount on them when they showed a receipt for a first run kit. I continue to buy and support both brands in confidence because of this.

Xray is too proud(arrogant?) to even acknowledge a problem, let alone solve it. It's a shame, because everything else about their products is solid, and all it would take is to acknowledge an issue(a couple now that I think of it), but instead they would rather dodge it, or perhaps change manuals and setup sheets to accomodate their shortcomings. By now they have surely seen the issue, so I'm actually slightly insulted that they are trying to explain it away like we're a bunch of first graders.
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Old 01-27-2015, 08:13 AM   #6735
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In case anybody wants to chime in on my thread on the Xray forum right herehttp://forum.teamxray.com/viewtopic....118647#p118647, please do. They just gave me the same copied response that they gave on here. Please, if you feel so inclined, speak up over there to add to my/our credibility, as it's probably a good option to get the message to the people overseas as well.
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