1LikesTLR 22SCT Thread (Check First Page for FAQ & INFO)
02-11-2014, 07:00 AM
#9301
I'd go so far as to say....
If an aftermarket vendor decided to make a set of arms and a chassis with droop screws for my 1/10 vehicles....I'd upgrade every one of them......
Limiters / droop.....such a nice tuning tool....
If an aftermarket vendor decided to make a set of arms and a chassis with droop screws for my 1/10 vehicles....I'd upgrade every one of them......
Limiters / droop.....such a nice tuning tool....
02-11-2014, 07:26 AM
#9302
Originally Posted by Bivens
Not at all...
Ride height is controlled by the screw adjusters on the outside of the shock that increase/decrease pre-load on the springs......screw these down the shock to add more spring compression to raise the height.....go the other way to lower it. Ride height is VERY important....you should always know what you are wanting to run on both front and back...and you should always check to see what height you have...adjust as required to get the height you want. Use a proper ride height gauge....millimeters matter a lot here....even worse in 2wd buggy....
The internal limiters simply reduce the amount of downtravel of a shock (and wheel)....this can be used to control weight transfer on the truck....for example, if you put some limiters in the front....as the truck accelerates and squats in the rear...it tries to lift the front end up......and when it gets high enough to "pick-up" the tires.....it immediately "feels" heavy and stops going up as easily....since now it must actually pick the front tires up off of the track surface....this generally stops the upward movement...
so, if you add more limiters in the front, it will stop the upward movement of the front of the truck at a lower level than if no limiters were used.....which stops the "squatting" action of the truck....reducing weight transfer to the rear....this would reduce on-power steering....
The same effect happens if you limit the rear....if you run no limiters in the rear...more weight can transfer to the front under braking.
Similar effects happen when the chassis rolls right or left.....
Generally it seems strange to most entry-level drivers that you would want to limit the travel of your shocks on an off-road truck....but the ability to control the weight transfer front/rear or side/side can normally outweigh the effect the reduced travel has on handling rough surfaces or landing from jumps. The designers of these vehicles have normally put MORE travel in the design than you will ever truly want....this allows you to set the maximum travel to your preference......most good setups use limiters on one end or both of a car or truck. 1/8 scale vehicles have droop screws that serve this purpose....
I wish 1/10 scale had droop screws.....
Ride height is controlled by the screw adjusters on the outside of the shock that increase/decrease pre-load on the springs......screw these down the shock to add more spring compression to raise the height.....go the other way to lower it. Ride height is VERY important....you should always know what you are wanting to run on both front and back...and you should always check to see what height you have...adjust as required to get the height you want. Use a proper ride height gauge....millimeters matter a lot here....even worse in 2wd buggy....
The internal limiters simply reduce the amount of downtravel of a shock (and wheel)....this can be used to control weight transfer on the truck....for example, if you put some limiters in the front....as the truck accelerates and squats in the rear...it tries to lift the front end up......and when it gets high enough to "pick-up" the tires.....it immediately "feels" heavy and stops going up as easily....since now it must actually pick the front tires up off of the track surface....this generally stops the upward movement...
so, if you add more limiters in the front, it will stop the upward movement of the front of the truck at a lower level than if no limiters were used.....which stops the "squatting" action of the truck....reducing weight transfer to the rear....this would reduce on-power steering....
The same effect happens if you limit the rear....if you run no limiters in the rear...more weight can transfer to the front under braking.
Similar effects happen when the chassis rolls right or left.....
Generally it seems strange to most entry-level drivers that you would want to limit the travel of your shocks on an off-road truck....but the ability to control the weight transfer front/rear or side/side can normally outweigh the effect the reduced travel has on handling rough surfaces or landing from jumps. The designers of these vehicles have normally put MORE travel in the design than you will ever truly want....this allows you to set the maximum travel to your preference......most good setups use limiters on one end or both of a car or truck. 1/8 scale vehicles have droop screws that serve this purpose....
I wish 1/10 scale had droop screws.....
This seems like it would give me less on power steering and more traction, correct?
Here's the setup sheet:
http://www.tlracing.com/ProdInfo/Fil...acingSetup.pdf
02-11-2014, 07:43 AM
#9303
Also I read the article:
http://losiracing.blogspot.com/2011/...lr-22-22t.html
and noticed alot of guys are running 25* kick angle and 5* castor as opposed to the stock 30* and 10* castor(what I'm currently running). How drastically does this change the weight transfer?
Could this be the reason why I push on power in turns?
http://losiracing.blogspot.com/2011/...lr-22-22t.html
and noticed alot of guys are running 25* kick angle and 5* castor as opposed to the stock 30* and 10* castor(what I'm currently running). How drastically does this change the weight transfer?
Could this be the reason why I push on power in turns?
02-11-2014, 10:58 AM
#9305
Originally Posted by sduffy77
I agree these tires aren't the best for running on clay but the rules for the "spec" class state that I have to run the RTR tires. When I move up to mod I can upgrade tires.
I'll hold off on the heavier oil.
Something else I just notices is I didn't put any shock limiters in, how will this affect performance? Is this just a ride height adjustment?
I'll hold off on the heavier oil.
Something else I just notices is I didn't put any shock limiters in, how will this affect performance? Is this just a ride height adjustment?
Originally Posted by sduffy77
I think I just found my answer:
http://www.competitionx.com/rc-racin...-tuning-droop/
So by me not putting any shock limiters in the rear that would cause more droop thus less steering. I'll add this to the list of changes to make and wanted to pass this on.
http://www.competitionx.com/rc-racin...-tuning-droop/
So by me not putting any shock limiters in the rear that would cause more droop thus less steering. I'll add this to the list of changes to make and wanted to pass this on.
Originally Posted by sduffy77
Also I read the article:
http://losiracing.blogspot.com/2011/...lr-22-22t.html
and noticed alot of guys are running 25* kick angle and 5* castor as opposed to the stock 30* and 10* castor(what I'm currently running). How drastically does this change the weight transfer?
Could this be the reason why I push on power in turns?
http://losiracing.blogspot.com/2011/...lr-22-22t.html
and noticed alot of guys are running 25* kick angle and 5* castor as opposed to the stock 30* and 10* castor(what I'm currently running). How drastically does this change the weight transfer?
Could this be the reason why I push on power in turns?
Originally Posted by sduffy77
Two more questions from looking at the setup sheets.
I wasn't sure how this gets adjusted, the rear anti-squat shows 2*, what is it set to stock and how is this adjusted?
Roll Center, what is this and how is this adjusted?
I wasn't sure how this gets adjusted, the rear anti-squat shows 2*, what is it set to stock and how is this adjusted?
Roll Center, what is this and how is this adjusted?
The roll centers are primarlity changed with adjustments to the camber links. Moving them in and out and up and down.
02-11-2014, 12:30 PM
#9306
Originally Posted by sduffy77
In the Travis Bock setup it lists 1mm limiter in front and 3mm limiter in rear. I didn't add any when I was building my shocks.
This seems like it would give me less on power steering and more traction, correct?
Here's the setup sheet:
http://www.tlracing.com/ProdInfo/Fil...acingSetup.pdf
This seems like it would give me less on power steering and more traction, correct?
Here's the setup sheet:
http://www.tlracing.com/ProdInfo/Fil...acingSetup.pdf
off-power....a truck without the 3mm rear limiters will shift more weight to the front....can make a loose condition on entry unless you have excellent rear grip or just drive VERY smoothly and carefully on a smooth track.
on-power....the 1mm front limiter is not a lot...but leaving this one out will allow the nose to rise more than if you had it in there....shifting a little more to the rear.....can reduce on-power steering....and may wheelie if you have lots of grip and power....
also, lack of limiters allows the truck to roll more in corners.....and will have some effect in bumps and rough sections....
I'd suggest that if you were trying to run a particular setup....that you are NOT getting the full effect.....unless you run ALL of the setup. If someone's setup has limiters...put them in....try it...then adjust for yourself if you want to make a change...
I'd suggest since we are having a technical discussion on limiting travel....that you should plan on adding these limiters to your current setup....then report back on the effects as YOU feel it on your truck and track.....this experiment will definitely help you to understand the feel changes of adding or subtracting limiters....
02-11-2014, 02:35 PM
#9307
Originally Posted by Casper
Yeah not a bad description. Tony Does a great job with that site
the kick up as well as the caster will be a big thing here. The kick up will effect wieght transfer. the caster will effect steering. Less caster tends to give more high speed or onpower steering. I would try 30/0 before changing the kick.
Antiquat is changed by swapping out a shim under the front rear pivot block thus raising or lowering that pivot. The shims have notches on the sides that tell you the antiquat setting. 1 notch 1deg, 2 notches 2 deg, 2 and a half notces 2.5 deg. ect.
The roll centers are primarlity changed with adjustments to the camber links. Moving them in and out and up and down.
the kick up as well as the caster will be a big thing here. The kick up will effect wieght transfer. the caster will effect steering. Less caster tends to give more high speed or onpower steering. I would try 30/0 before changing the kick.
Antiquat is changed by swapping out a shim under the front rear pivot block thus raising or lowering that pivot. The shims have notches on the sides that tell you the antiquat setting. 1 notch 1deg, 2 notches 2 deg, 2 and a half notces 2.5 deg. ect.
The roll centers are primarlity changed with adjustments to the camber links. Moving them in and out and up and down.
Originally Posted by Bivens
With no limiters...you'll get more transfer of weight in all directions......
off-power....a truck without the 3mm rear limiters will shift more weight to the front....can make a loose condition on entry unless you have excellent rear grip or just drive VERY smoothly and carefully on a smooth track.
on-power....the 1mm front limiter is not a lot...but leaving this one out will allow the nose to rise more than if you had it in there....shifting a little more to the rear.....can reduce on-power steering....and may wheelie if you have lots of grip and power....
also, lack of limiters allows the truck to roll more in corners.....and will have some effect in bumps and rough sections....
I'd suggest that if you were trying to run a particular setup....that you are NOT getting the full effect.....unless you run ALL of the setup. If someone's setup has limiters...put them in....try it...then adjust for yourself if you want to make a change...
I'd suggest since we are having a technical discussion on limiting travel....that you should plan on adding these limiters to your current setup....then report back on the effects as YOU feel it on your truck and track.....this experiment will definitely help you to understand the feel changes of adding or subtracting limiters....
off-power....a truck without the 3mm rear limiters will shift more weight to the front....can make a loose condition on entry unless you have excellent rear grip or just drive VERY smoothly and carefully on a smooth track.
on-power....the 1mm front limiter is not a lot...but leaving this one out will allow the nose to rise more than if you had it in there....shifting a little more to the rear.....can reduce on-power steering....and may wheelie if you have lots of grip and power....
also, lack of limiters allows the truck to roll more in corners.....and will have some effect in bumps and rough sections....
I'd suggest that if you were trying to run a particular setup....that you are NOT getting the full effect.....unless you run ALL of the setup. If someone's setup has limiters...put them in....try it...then adjust for yourself if you want to make a change...
I'd suggest since we are having a technical discussion on limiting travel....that you should plan on adding these limiters to your current setup....then report back on the effects as YOU feel it on your truck and track.....this experiment will definitely help you to understand the feel changes of adding or subtracting limiters....
Thanks Casper, I understood everything but the Roll Center. I'll do some searching to see if I can figure it out.
Thanks Bivens, I'll do that and report back. It'll be another 2 weeks until we have another race so hopefully I'll remember. haha
02-11-2014, 04:26 PM
#9308
Here's one...but it strikes me that there are FIVE (5) pages of posts....and not ONE figure or sketch....
http://www.rctech.net/forum/electric...ll-center.html
good to read...but I'm a graphical thinker....I want figures....
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...3777&showall=1
On the figure above...you see the graphical representation of WHERE the roll center really is....don't forget that you have ONE average roll center...made up of both front and rear.....the front is dominant entering a corner...rear is dominant exiting....but the "average" of both will be dominant mid corner at constant speed....
Here's a good video demonstrating roll center extremes...on a 2wd buggy...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWdRQaz_Xq8
So, don't forget.....that chassis roll in a corner is a function of roll center, CG height...and speed.....and don't ignore that many of the current setups focus on lowering the CG by getting all of the electronics on the chassis.....
and...here is something we don't normally consider...the roll center can MOVE as the suspension compresses...if you mentally move the chassis up or down in the figures from the links above...you can imagine this.....the relationship of geometry between the top arm and bottom arm make this happen...and it can get REALLY complex really quick....
read this...about moving roll center during suspension action....
http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/roll_center.html
THIS is the reason it does not always result in the same "FEEL" in the car if you make a roll center adjustment with washers raising or lowering the ball joints on a buggy or truck...for example, if you thought you'd get a similar effect on the car by either adding a washer under the inside ball link...or taking one away from the outer ball link......this explains why it feels different to drive...even though the net angular changed by a one-washer adjustment SEEMS like you could make it on either link....
Sort of gives you a real appreciation for how complex these toy cars really are....racing is racing...no matter what size....
http://www.rctech.net/forum/electric...ll-center.html
good to read...but I'm a graphical thinker....I want figures....
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...3777&showall=1
On the figure above...you see the graphical representation of WHERE the roll center really is....don't forget that you have ONE average roll center...made up of both front and rear.....the front is dominant entering a corner...rear is dominant exiting....but the "average" of both will be dominant mid corner at constant speed....
Here's a good video demonstrating roll center extremes...on a 2wd buggy...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWdRQaz_Xq8
So, don't forget.....that chassis roll in a corner is a function of roll center, CG height...and speed.....and don't ignore that many of the current setups focus on lowering the CG by getting all of the electronics on the chassis.....
and...here is something we don't normally consider...the roll center can MOVE as the suspension compresses...if you mentally move the chassis up or down in the figures from the links above...you can imagine this.....the relationship of geometry between the top arm and bottom arm make this happen...and it can get REALLY complex really quick....
read this...about moving roll center during suspension action....
http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/roll_center.html
You should note that the roll center will move when the suspension is compressed or lifted, that's why it's actually an instantaneous roll center. How much this roll center moves as the suspension is compressed is determined by the suspension arm length and the angle between the top and bottom suspension arms (or turnbuckles).
As the suspension is compressed, the roll center will become higher and the moment arm (distance between roll center and the car's center of gravity (CoG in the picture)) will decrease. This will mean that as the suspension is compressed (when taking a corner, for example), the car will have less tendency to keep rolling (which is good, you do not want to roll over).
When using higher grip tires, you should set the suspension arms so that the roll center is raised significantly as the suspension is compressed.
Running parallel, equal-length suspension arms will result in a fixed roll center. This means that as the car leans over, the moment arm will be forcing the car to roll more and more. As a general rule of thumb, the higher the center of gravity of your car, the higher the roll center should be to avoid a roll-over.
As the suspension is compressed, the roll center will become higher and the moment arm (distance between roll center and the car's center of gravity (CoG in the picture)) will decrease. This will mean that as the suspension is compressed (when taking a corner, for example), the car will have less tendency to keep rolling (which is good, you do not want to roll over).
When using higher grip tires, you should set the suspension arms so that the roll center is raised significantly as the suspension is compressed.
Running parallel, equal-length suspension arms will result in a fixed roll center. This means that as the car leans over, the moment arm will be forcing the car to roll more and more. As a general rule of thumb, the higher the center of gravity of your car, the higher the roll center should be to avoid a roll-over.
Sort of gives you a real appreciation for how complex these toy cars really are....racing is racing...no matter what size....
Last edited by Bivens; 02-11-2014 at 04:38 PM.
02-11-2014, 09:21 PM
#9311
Originally Posted by Outtacontrol58
This has probably been asked a ton of times but when is the 22SCT2.0 coming? Trying to hold out. It's the last class I need to switch over to be 100% TLR. thanks for any info!!
I bet we see the announcement sooner rather than later...
02-12-2014, 10:07 AM
#9313
Originally Posted by Outtacontrol58
This has probably been asked a ton of times but when is the 22SCT2.0 coming? Trying to hold out. It's the last class I need to switch over to be 100% TLR. thanks for any info!!
02-12-2014, 12:49 PM
#9315
Originally Posted by K22Hsct
What shims should I use when mounting my Savox 1258 with the 2.0 steering rack?
Speaking of 22 2.0 rack, has anyone messed with ackerman and what changes does adding shims under the ball stud do? like will 1mm of shims give more ackerman effect(bigger difference in the angle of the front tires will turning) or is it the other way around?
