Why do you have to let the leader pass you in racing?
05-24-2012, 01:10 PM
#46
Tech Champion
Thread Starter
You can hold your line , that's ok ..
However ,you should still drive wide into the next turn and allow the leader to follow though & go on by...
Don't force the leader to make a pass on your ride !!!!
Forcing the leader can only make for a crash for both of you and little more .
Driving extra
wide into the next turn costs you very little time compared to pulling over, crashing,ect .....
However ,you should still drive wide into the next turn and allow the leader to follow though & go on by...
Don't force the leader to make a pass on your ride !!!!
Forcing the leader can only make for a crash for both of you and little more .
Driving extra
wide into the next turn costs you very little time compared to pulling over, crashing,ect .....
I've never forced the leader or cost him time. Here in Belgium the racers all know each other, we are friends. I've absolutely no reason to do that.
This said, when I'm in the lead I would prefer a slower driver to keep his line to AVOID a crash. We are talking about exactly the same goals, but have a different opinion about the way to reach it. That's it. Curtesy is normal, it has nothing to do with this question
I can see your point in a way but with what you said after you have been lapped there would be no reason to stay on the track. which in turn means everyone that will get lapped should stop racing..
TBO. I don't care. I paid the same amount to race as they did. If they are getting paid to race. They should have NO problem passing me as long as I hold my line.
Yeap
100% Agree.
don't take this the wrong way.
I hold my own very well in 13.5 Buggy. I have raced twice now in mod buggy with the big boys, I hold my own well, still running in blinky mode up with some of their 7.5's I think wheeler lapped me 2-3 times ( I made a lot of mistakes) does this mean I shouldn't race Mod buggy? Does that mean the guys I lapped 4-5 times in 13.5 shouldn't race 13.5 even though they are mush faster then the Novice buggy class. does that will reduce the classes a lot.
Running with faster driver will only make you faster if you keep with it. I move out of the way only cause I know the lines they are going to take and can set it up for it to happen cleanly. from that. I hold my line as best as i can... they will find a way around.
That right there hit the nail on the head.
you don't need to do anything but follow the rules. Unless a rule says you need to move out of the way. You don't need to. Yes it is nice to (only if you know it will not cause a crash ) or just hold your line
This is a battle that will go on forever. No real person or rule will win it.
It's racing. With racing you will run into slower people. People who are trying to just have fun with friends. Yes it sucks to be taken out by someone in the way. I don't get paid to do this. Yes I will get pissed when it happens but guess what. IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN...
I try to hold my line and know my place. if i have a bad few laps and se eit getting worse I just pull my car off. No point to keep going.
I do like some of the opinions posted though some are good some aren't ( to me) but it does bring more options on the table and lets others see more into it.
(I don't mean to offend anyone with my posting, so please do not take it personal)
TBO. I don't care. I paid the same amount to race as they did. If they are getting paid to race. They should have NO problem passing me as long as I hold my line.
Yeap
100% Agree.
don't take this the wrong way.
I hold my own very well in 13.5 Buggy. I have raced twice now in mod buggy with the big boys, I hold my own well, still running in blinky mode up with some of their 7.5's I think wheeler lapped me 2-3 times ( I made a lot of mistakes) does this mean I shouldn't race Mod buggy? Does that mean the guys I lapped 4-5 times in 13.5 shouldn't race 13.5 even though they are mush faster then the Novice buggy class. does that will reduce the classes a lot.
Running with faster driver will only make you faster if you keep with it. I move out of the way only cause I know the lines they are going to take and can set it up for it to happen cleanly. from that. I hold my line as best as i can... they will find a way around.
That right there hit the nail on the head.
you don't need to do anything but follow the rules. Unless a rule says you need to move out of the way. You don't need to. Yes it is nice to (only if you know it will not cause a crash ) or just hold your line
This is a battle that will go on forever. No real person or rule will win it.
It's racing. With racing you will run into slower people. People who are trying to just have fun with friends. Yes it sucks to be taken out by someone in the way. I don't get paid to do this. Yes I will get pissed when it happens but guess what. IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN...
I try to hold my line and know my place. if i have a bad few laps and se eit getting worse I just pull my car off. No point to keep going.
I do like some of the opinions posted though some are good some aren't ( to me) but it does bring more options on the table and lets others see more into it.
(I don't mean to offend anyone with my posting, so please do not take it personal)
05-24-2012, 01:11 PM
#47
Ok there are a lot of reasons for this but what many of you are saying here mean the race is more important for the leader and its first place than for the rest of the racers. And I don't think so. To me everybody has the right to race and no driver should be advantaged over the other. Some guys fight for the 9th place, why should it be less important for them? They paid the same bucks to race, right?
Racing isn't an exact science, crashes happen. I don't see what justifies that a leader is advantaged even more considering he's already the fastest.
If I was a leader I wouldn't want other guys to open the door for many reasons. First I would like to think I win a race because I'm the best on the track, also in my abilities to manage the traffic, and certainly not because everybody is being "nice" with me because I'm number 1. Second, I would prefer doing the choice of where and when I will do my pass to make sure NO crashes happen. I prefer that than having a newbie that opens the door at the wrong moment or cause a crash because he has to much pressure on him.
If everybody opens the door to the leader, why is there a race? Is this racing? Racing is part of talent AND chance, crashes, mistakes, misunderstandings. It's not a perfect science.
Racing isn't an exact science, crashes happen. I don't see what justifies that a leader is advantaged even more considering he's already the fastest.
If I was a leader I wouldn't want other guys to open the door for many reasons. First I would like to think I win a race because I'm the best on the track, also in my abilities to manage the traffic, and certainly not because everybody is being "nice" with me because I'm number 1. Second, I would prefer doing the choice of where and when I will do my pass to make sure NO crashes happen. I prefer that than having a newbie that opens the door at the wrong moment or cause a crash because he has to much pressure on him.
If everybody opens the door to the leader, why is there a race? Is this racing? Racing is part of talent AND chance, crashes, mistakes, misunderstandings. It's not a perfect science.
What some/most people dont/arent realizing here is a race isnt always a single race. Battles for 1st 2nd 3rd,fast lap etc... are all races within a race. so not slowing down/moving for a faster car/truck/airplane/submarine whatever, is just ignorant. just because you are being lapped due to poor driving, a bad wreck, hemroids, whatever is just outright poor sportsmanship.
Do i let a faster guy pass? depends on the race. if im on his level and his lap, most likely not but if im lap traffic, announce yourself because i may not be paying you/your race any attention because im still running my race/races.
does that make any sense?
Do i let a faster guy pass? depends on the race. if im on his level and his lap, most likely not but if im lap traffic, announce yourself because i may not be paying you/your race any attention because im still running my race/races.
does that make any sense?
05-24-2012, 01:17 PM
#48
Tech Champion
Thread Starter
As I said again and again and again... I'm not in the back of the pack myself, so this subject is not about my personnal situation. I'm just pointing out that a slow driver would do less harm by keeping his line than trying to handle a pass when the driver behind him that is faster would handle it much better as he has more experience. That's my OPINION
I was more in the situation were a slow driver was holding me up because he couldn't do a clean move to let me pass rather than the contrary. We have a different opinion and many of you make it sound like I lack of curtesy. You should meet the drivers that drive with me and hear what they say about how I drive before judging
. As I said curtesy is normal to me and can't be questionned, but the way and the rules that allow all the drivers to race can be questionned. At least I hope so
I was more in the situation were a slow driver was holding me up because he couldn't do a clean move to let me pass rather than the contrary. We have a different opinion and many of you make it sound like I lack of curtesy. You should meet the drivers that drive with me and hear what they say about how I drive before judging
. As I said curtesy is normal to me and can't be questionned, but the way and the rules that allow all the drivers to race can be questionned. At least I hope so
Last edited by Pulse_; 05-24-2012 at 01:27 PM.
05-24-2012, 01:21 PM
#49
[QUOTE=Pulse_;10774130]Regarding the reactions I might not be clear I think
[QUOTE]
When the slower car goes wide the leader will do the reacting and follow though the inside of the turn naturally....
Holding your line and never allowing the leaders by clean is not friendly or good sport ...
[QUOTE]
When the slower car goes wide the leader will do the reacting and follow though the inside of the turn naturally....
Holding your line and never allowing the leaders by clean is not friendly or good sport ...
05-24-2012, 01:28 PM
#50
[QUOTE=Wild Cherry;10774159][QUOTE=Pulse_;10774130]Regarding the reactions I might not be clear I think
When the slower car goes wide the leader will do the reacting and follow though the inside of the turn naturally....
Holding your line and never allowing the leaders by clean is not friendly or good sport ...
Have you ever raced anything of scale? MX, Sport bikes cars?
When the slower car goes wide the leader will do the reacting and follow though the inside of the turn naturally....
Holding your line and never allowing the leaders by clean is not friendly or good sport ...
05-24-2012, 01:34 PM
#51
I think this is a great conversation and something I feel very strongly about. First and foremost, racing etiquette is no longer taught anymore. What I call the 4wd generation never got to learn what we did 25 years ago and that was always taught by the Race Director. I fully agree that a lap car should pull aside. Real racing does this with either waving flags or blinking blue lights. There are several reasons for this and the main one is that in real cars majority of the time the drivers are not blowing lines so they could hold you up forever. The second is that in real racing there is fear of death so if an aggressive pass goes wrong on a lapper you could die.
There lies the two problems, our race announcers no longer teach the new racers, they hardly watch the race to understand what is going on. They should be announcing where the leaders are and who they are coming up on next. And this was brought up, but this isn't the beginners fault, I have come to learn that most novices have a peripheral range of about 1 foot around their car. And most of the time they don't even get to look at the car that just passed them to see who they were. Now if a race announcer could just say, Billy that is the leader behind you, please give room. To me it is the announcers fault staring at the screen the whole race and not penalizing for rough driving (when was the last time you saw someone get black flagged?).
The second portion of this is the fear of death which we don't have. And this keys in well with the 4wd generation. If you are a patient leader and wait for a lapper to blow a line, usually what happens next is that you get by and they either target fixate on your car in the next corner and forget to lift throttle which in turn plows into your car, or when they get off the line and you tuck in, the lapper will do a desperate throttle grab to get back in the line taking the leader out. The 4wd generation of this is that sometimes the lapper wants to prove something so after the leader gets by the lapper will hail mary the next corner sliding and somehow they magically make it and on the exit run right up your ... Try this in 2wd mod buggy, you will push all the way to the wall and be sitting there with a broken arm.
So my feelings on this is that there is no educating going on through the track/directors. It isn't the fault of the novice. Now for people that have been racing for a long time and win races that still just won't budge when getting lapped, that to me is a character flaw of ego. Granted I think we all do it, when getting lapped you put on your fast lap shoes to try and show that you just had some bad luck but the second you bobble or they are staying 4 feet behind you the whole lap, just pull over, you didn't pull away. I think that would be a more interesting discussion on why do experienced fast guys not give line and if they do they then drive as hard as they can until they pass you or they wreck?
There lies the two problems, our race announcers no longer teach the new racers, they hardly watch the race to understand what is going on. They should be announcing where the leaders are and who they are coming up on next. And this was brought up, but this isn't the beginners fault, I have come to learn that most novices have a peripheral range of about 1 foot around their car. And most of the time they don't even get to look at the car that just passed them to see who they were. Now if a race announcer could just say, Billy that is the leader behind you, please give room. To me it is the announcers fault staring at the screen the whole race and not penalizing for rough driving (when was the last time you saw someone get black flagged?).
The second portion of this is the fear of death which we don't have. And this keys in well with the 4wd generation. If you are a patient leader and wait for a lapper to blow a line, usually what happens next is that you get by and they either target fixate on your car in the next corner and forget to lift throttle which in turn plows into your car, or when they get off the line and you tuck in, the lapper will do a desperate throttle grab to get back in the line taking the leader out. The 4wd generation of this is that sometimes the lapper wants to prove something so after the leader gets by the lapper will hail mary the next corner sliding and somehow they magically make it and on the exit run right up your ... Try this in 2wd mod buggy, you will push all the way to the wall and be sitting there with a broken arm.
So my feelings on this is that there is no educating going on through the track/directors. It isn't the fault of the novice. Now for people that have been racing for a long time and win races that still just won't budge when getting lapped, that to me is a character flaw of ego. Granted I think we all do it, when getting lapped you put on your fast lap shoes to try and show that you just had some bad luck but the second you bobble or they are staying 4 feet behind you the whole lap, just pull over, you didn't pull away. I think that would be a more interesting discussion on why do experienced fast guys not give line and if they do they then drive as hard as they can until they pass you or they wreck?
05-24-2012, 01:36 PM
#53
Pulse, you keep saying that you would just prefer that the backed traffic hold their line so you can go around. But it doesn't work that way in the real world. Most slower drivers that are slow enough to be lapped don't usually hold a nice line... they are in the line, out of the line, in the line, overshooting the corner a bit, spinning their tires a bit... back in the line.. etc. If they are able to drive their car relatively quickly, but are still being lapped.. it can be a nightmare for somebody to make a clean pass. Over any length timeline, it is faster for BOTH cars if the car being lapped pulls over to let the leader by, or predictably and intentionally goes wide on a corner to allow an easy pass.
If you insist on staying on the throttle directly in front of the leader trying to put you a lap down, statistics would dictate that you will only be making your OWN race slower by not moving over, let alone the leader you are holding up as well.
Even if you are in your own race, farther back in the pack, (lets say 7th fighting 6th), the leader will need to pass both of you, not just you. So overall, it shouldn't affect your position one way or another.
If you insist on staying on the throttle directly in front of the leader trying to put you a lap down, statistics would dictate that you will only be making your OWN race slower by not moving over, let alone the leader you are holding up as well.
Even if you are in your own race, farther back in the pack, (lets say 7th fighting 6th), the leader will need to pass both of you, not just you. So overall, it shouldn't affect your position one way or another.
05-24-2012, 01:39 PM
#54
When ever I am driving, whether I'm in 3rd or in 10th, and another car is coming up behind me fast, I hold my line, and as he goes around me to pass, I let off the throttle for just that moment that allows him to get around without either of us crashing. Often, this just means waiting a tiny bit longer before I hit the gas coming out of the corner.
Alternatively, if he is coming up on me REALLY fast, I will take the outside line on the next corner.
Since I have started doing this, I have found my lap times much more consistent, since I am crashing into the other cars less.
If it was the top drivers lapping me, then I feel good about helping them drive a clean race.
If it was the guy behind me (say I was in 3rd, and he was 4th) and I let him pass me cleanly, I find that I often pass them again in the next 2-3 corners. The only reason they caught up with me is because I made some mistake that slowed me down, so I just focus on driving cleanly, and not making mistakes. When I don't make mistakes, I stay ahead of them, and they don't get close enough to pass me.
To me, a mistake is letting a car run into you because you are trying to hold your line and they are closing too quickly. Slowing down for 0.5 seconds to let someone pass is a lot better than waiting 10-15 seconds for the corner marshall to untagle your car from theirs and get you on the track again...
Alternatively, if he is coming up on me REALLY fast, I will take the outside line on the next corner.
Since I have started doing this, I have found my lap times much more consistent, since I am crashing into the other cars less.
If it was the top drivers lapping me, then I feel good about helping them drive a clean race.
If it was the guy behind me (say I was in 3rd, and he was 4th) and I let him pass me cleanly, I find that I often pass them again in the next 2-3 corners. The only reason they caught up with me is because I made some mistake that slowed me down, so I just focus on driving cleanly, and not making mistakes. When I don't make mistakes, I stay ahead of them, and they don't get close enough to pass me.
To me, a mistake is letting a car run into you because you are trying to hold your line and they are closing too quickly. Slowing down for 0.5 seconds to let someone pass is a lot better than waiting 10-15 seconds for the corner marshall to untagle your car from theirs and get you on the track again...
05-24-2012, 02:11 PM
#55
Tech Regular
iTrader: (13)
@Brent...
As I'm getting use to the Az rc scene I first need to make this clear. You are one of the faster, smoother, and overal better drivers I've seen and a really nice guy
That being said where we run there's always exceptions because of size, space, time etc. Generally a lot of tracks will run Novice, Sportsman, and Pro for different cars.
Novice- bring what you bought, race, and have fun. This is one of the best classes to hone you skills and when getting fast enough and passing others the announcer will mention that you'll need to step up.
Sportsmen- This is where it gets a little dicey because some tracks lump 17.5's 13.5's and mods without separating pros. If tracks do this then to heck its a free for all and do your best to get around slower drivers and don't bitch. And if tracks do have a true sportsmen class same applies as above, If driver gets good enough have him move up.
Pro- a novice who thinks they are ready jump into this class or a sportsmen without recommendation shouldn't be allowed. Doesn't make for great racing and might cause damage to other cars.
As I'm getting use to the Az rc scene I first need to make this clear. You are one of the faster, smoother, and overal better drivers I've seen and a really nice guy
That being said where we run there's always exceptions because of size, space, time etc. Generally a lot of tracks will run Novice, Sportsman, and Pro for different cars. Novice- bring what you bought, race, and have fun. This is one of the best classes to hone you skills and when getting fast enough and passing others the announcer will mention that you'll need to step up.
Sportsmen- This is where it gets a little dicey because some tracks lump 17.5's 13.5's and mods without separating pros. If tracks do this then to heck its a free for all and do your best to get around slower drivers and don't bitch. And if tracks do have a true sportsmen class same applies as above, If driver gets good enough have him move up.
Pro- a novice who thinks they are ready jump into this class or a sportsmen without recommendation shouldn't be allowed. Doesn't make for great racing and might cause damage to other cars.
05-24-2012, 02:15 PM
#56
Let's add a little fuel to this fire: If the leader is lapping you and then he starts to make mistakes and crash on his own after he passes you and you subsequently pass him and un lap yourself, do you still need to let him by as he comes up behind you? I've seen this happen where the leader feels the pressure of winning and starts making mistakes and slowing every one down since they're not sure what to do.
05-24-2012, 02:20 PM
#57
If you are a patient leader and wait for a lapper to blow a line, usually what happens next is that you get by and they either target fixate on your car in the next corner and forget to lift throttle which in turn plows into your car, or when they get off the line and you tuck in, the lapper will do a desperate throttle grab to get back in the line taking the leader out. The 4wd generation of this is that sometimes the lapper wants to prove something so after the leader gets by the lapper will hail mary the next corner sliding and somehow they magically make it and on the exit run right up your ... Try this in 2wd mod buggy, you will push all the way to the wall and be sitting there with a broken arm.
05-24-2012, 02:22 PM
#58
@Brent...
As I'm getting use to the Az rc scene I first need to make this clear. You are one of the faster, smoother, and overal better drivers I've seen and a really nice guy That being said where we run there's always exceptions because of size, space, time etc. Generally a lot of tracks will run Novice, Sportsman, and Pro for different cars.
Novice- bring what you bought, race, and have fun. This is one of the best classes to hone you skills and when getting fast enough and passing others the announcer will mention that you'll need to step up.
Sportsmen- This is where it gets a little dicey because some tracks lump 17.5's 13.5's and mods without separating pros. If tracks do this then to heck its a free for all and do your best to get around slower drivers and don't bitch. And if tracks do have a true sportsmen class same applies as above, If driver gets good enough have him move up.
Pro- a novice who thinks they are ready jump into this class or a sportsmen without recommendation shouldn't be allowed. Doesn't make for great racing and might cause damage to other cars.
As I'm getting use to the Az rc scene I first need to make this clear. You are one of the faster, smoother, and overal better drivers I've seen and a really nice guy
That being said where we run there's always exceptions because of size, space, time etc. Generally a lot of tracks will run Novice, Sportsman, and Pro for different cars. Novice- bring what you bought, race, and have fun. This is one of the best classes to hone you skills and when getting fast enough and passing others the announcer will mention that you'll need to step up.
Sportsmen- This is where it gets a little dicey because some tracks lump 17.5's 13.5's and mods without separating pros. If tracks do this then to heck its a free for all and do your best to get around slower drivers and don't bitch. And if tracks do have a true sportsmen class same applies as above, If driver gets good enough have him move up.
Pro- a novice who thinks they are ready jump into this class or a sportsmen without recommendation shouldn't be allowed. Doesn't make for great racing and might cause damage to other cars.
I agree
Reason Jim ended up making a Novice Buggy class and a sportsmen class. His sportsmen class was anyone with a big motor that didn't fit into a class and was not up to speed in pro 2 or mod buggy.
When you coming out racing again? I will be at W3 tuning the Buggy and soon at FF with a 1/8th
05-24-2012, 02:24 PM
#59
Just read this whole thread and was waiting to see someone say this. At our track our announcers educate the racers as much as possible. It is called the "Common courtesy rule". We don't have too much problem with lapees holding or letting the leader by, the problem is usually getting taken out in the next turn or two.
If all the slower drivers have to start letting the faster drivers around. I feel this hobby will go no where fast. There would be no point to even race.
05-24-2012, 02:35 PM
#60
Tech Master
iTrader: (39)
This isn't always about a beginner vs an experienced racer. At my local track, the classes are small and different groups can get lumped together. I was running a 17.5 against other guys with mod setups. My line is different than theirs because I need to maintain energy in certain areas. So, I move aside and let them by otherwise our lines would cross.