Race starts?

Old 04-09-2012, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by e-guy1980 View Post
I personally hate IFMAR style quals. I grew up with heads up racing for qualifying both in R/C and full scale. I still see people getting hacked or first turn pile ups because everyone jumps the tone screwing up good runs just as often with IFMAR style because people just want to race, so that argument really doesn't work. Heads up racing makes you have to develop a strategy for the starts, which is a skill that is lacking in a lot of racers (I think because of a lack of practicing the heads up scenario), so that you don't end up in the first turn pile up. Plus, it's honestly just not as fun racing the clock as it is other people
What type of full scale heads up qualifying did you do? I ask because I can only think of a couple types that do or could fit that. There could be others that I don't know about. I ain't that smart.

If people screw up IFMAR starts by all trying to jump the start, then there's other issues at play. Most likely the racers don't understand how it's supposed to work. It goes both ways though. If only one type of starting is used and the other is so rearly used, when the time comes to use the other start type, it's usually a pain to get everyone on the same page. A balance between the two would probably be better.

In qualifying, the only thing you're supposed to be racing is the clock. It's the same or is supposed to be the same for either start type.
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Old 04-09-2012, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by davidfast View Post
Practice makes you a better racer, not heads up starting.



Club racing is just practice, thus why a heads up start is necessary ......
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Old 04-09-2012, 12:17 PM
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Heads up because people need MORE practice racing each other instead of just bumping people off the track.

IFMAR gets you used to running by yourself and expecting people to move over when you come up on them and doesn't help the main at all
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Old 04-09-2012, 12:19 PM
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Club racing is just practice for what? Not everyone cares to compete on a larger scale. 2 or 3 qualifying rules and then a main regardless of what it is called is racing. Anything else is a practice session. Practice isn't organized with timing. Racing is.
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Old 04-09-2012, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by fredswain View Post
Club racing is just practice for what? Not everyone cares to compete on a larger scale. 2 or 3 qualifying rules and then a main regardless of what it is called is racing. Anything else is a practice session. Practice isn't organized with timing. Racing is.
Club racing serves as practice for big events like two day races , Nats , series point races ...

In club racing ?

When qualifying it is good etiquette is to allow the faster car by, that sure is not racing is it ?

The only racing in Club or Big events is in the mains..
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Old 04-09-2012, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by JayL View Post
Heads up because people need MORE practice racing each other instead of just bumping people off the track.

IFMAR gets you used to running by yourself and expecting people to move over when you come up on them and doesn't help the main at all

More practice racing each other? Agree. More importantly, practicing in traffic or with traffic. That means getting out to the track on a practice day and actually throwing your ride on the track when there's other cars/trucks on it. Not waiting until you can have the track all to yourself as many tend to do. I myself am just as guilty at times. If you only practice on the track by yourself, then you're still in the same boat as the second part of your statement.

Which leads me to that second part. I fully understand the statement and know exactly what you are referring to. It can and does have that side effect to an extent. Yet it's little different than coming up to lap a racer for the 4th or 5th time in the main and they still won't move, but will try and race you for a position that ain't there. Doesn't help in the main at all, as you pointed out.

The whole point of an IFMAR start is to give every racer the best chance at a fast, clean qual time. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. Is one start type better than the other accross the baord? Nope. There are times when one start type is better suited for a given class on a given race day. Could be club level, could be on a bigger race level. It's all preference. I've ran both start types and some other hybrids over the years and both/all have their own pros and cons.
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Old 04-09-2012, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Teufel Racing View Post
What type of full scale heads up qualifying did you do? I ask because I can only think of a couple types that do or could fit that. There could be others that I don't know about. I ain't that smart.

If people screw up IFMAR starts by all trying to jump the start, then there's other issues at play. Most likely the racers don't understand how it's supposed to work. It goes both ways though. If only one type of starting is used and the other is so rearly used, when the time comes to use the other start type, it's usually a pain to get everyone on the same page. A balance between the two would probably be better.

In qualifying, the only thing you're supposed to be racing is the clock. It's the same or is supposed to be the same for either start type.
Raced short track oval for years and we ran heat races, seeded by points, that were heads up 10 or so cars per heat. Same with motorcross, timed qualifying to seed into a heat where you're racing heads up. Most oval racing below the NASCAR level, and pretty much all dirt racing, run heads up heats. Heck, even IZOD it's doing it at a few of the IndyCar races this year in an effort to get back to the "Saturday night short track roots."

And plenty of people screw up IFMAR racing no matter how many times it's explained because the concept of not racing the guy next to you is a tough one, even for me, because my brain says "if you're not lapping me I should be racing you for position."
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Old 04-09-2012, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by e-guy1980 View Post
Raced short track oval for years and we ran heat races, seeded by points, that were heads up 10 or so cars per heat. Same with motorcross, timed qualifying to seed into a heat where you're racing heads up. Most oval racing below the NASCAR level, and pretty much all dirt racing, run heads up heats. Heck, even IZOD it's doing it at a few of the IndyCar races this year in an effort to get back to the "Saturday night short track roots."

And plenty of people screw up IFMAR racing no matter how many times it's explained because the concept of not racing the guy next to you is a tough one, even for me, because my brain says "if you're not lapping me I should be racing you for position."


Fair enough. I thought something oval based and MX would for sure be two, but didn't know if there was another full sacle type that would also fit the bill, though I'm sure there's got to be others. Anyway. Dirt oval I'm a little more versed in, what they do there is what I would consider a hybrid start type. Simular to what some of the nitro tracks do. Loop is live/rolling starts. To me it's a little bit of both types and for nitro, I think is perfect. Whay that's not done on in the elec. side is beyond me. It can allow for a little more spaced out starts or tighter starts based on who or how the #1 car decideds to go. I'm sure that a different start type could be done for oval and has probably been tried more than once over the years somewhere.

Now coming from a full scale oval back ground, how many times have you seen someone get taken out on the first turn or thought they were and have things get overly heated back in the pits? To the point of going toe to toe. Not good for racing unless people like to see the friday night fights, which do happen. Probably more than they should.

MX to me a little different because while a heads up starting type, there's a lot more to getting a good gate start than just how or where you qual'd on the sheet. So much so that riders will often just practice that one thing for weeks on end. Also you have the gate pick, which while it's the MX version of a pole position, getting to pick the best gate can make a world of dofference. That is something that the RC world doesn't have for the most part, though has been tried over the years. I'm willing to bet that sometimes a rider will pick a gate based on who is qual'd around them, instead of just going for the best gate. Knowing who you're racing and how they are known to race probably has some influence.

Both of the above have been ingrained since racer first got in to that type of racing and by the time a racer of that type is any good, they should know exactly how the game is played and more importantly how it isn't played, though plenty of cases can be made to point out how people can forget ot just not care about that part.

Izod changing their qualing and starts? Didn't know that. Will be intresting to see if it works out they way they are planning out of the gate or if some changes will be made.

Your last point is something that I think many suffer from. Myself included. Some habits are hard to break. That is why I think both heads up and IFMAR can and should have a place even on the local club level. They both can teach those willing to learn, something that the other doesn't offer.
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Old 04-09-2012, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Wild Cherry View Post
Club racing serves as practice for big events like two day races , Nats , series point races ...

In club racing ?

When qualifying it is good etiquette is to allow the faster car by, that sure is not racing is it ?

The only racing in Club or Big events is in the mains..
Not everyone runs big 2 day races, nats, or series points. Many people just do club "racing". It's in the name. Practice is what you do anytime there isn't racing going on such as going to the track on a random day off and just running around. No transponder. No timing. No start. No finish. Just running. Street running, parking lot, back woods, etc. That's practice. A club race is merely a smaller race event but it's still a race.

Qualifying is racing the clock to determine starting position for the main. It is good etiquette to allow faster cars around regardless of situation or race whether that means during qualifying, during a main, at a club event, or at nationals or worlds. If you are the slow guy, you are the slow guy. Even real race cars yield to the leaders. That's how all racing should be done unequivocally across the board.
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Old 04-09-2012, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by davidfast View Post
Practice makes you a better racer, not heads up starting.
And practice give you the opportunity to do timed laps under pressure with other competition? I think not....

IFMAR qualifying is essentially timed practice.

Practice has its place, no doubt. But there is no substitution for heads-up racing.
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Old 04-09-2012, 01:58 PM
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hideeho
It would be interesting to see how it would work out doing quali the way lots of the 1:1 series do it. 1 hot lap. not saying 1 lap & done, but more like a few cars (1-5 depending on track size) at a time with a short time limit (1-3 mins, again depending on track size). the idea would be to get 5-6 laps & the 1 fastest lap determines start order. due to shorter quali time run run 2-3 mains with the overall winner determined by points.

or if you have a big track & a fair amount of people (20+/-), but not too many, do it like f1. everybody on the track to get their fastest lap with a 15min time limit on the session. bottom 8 people are out & in the c main. next is 10 min session, bottom 6 are out & the b main. finallly 5 min shoot out for pole w/ the top 6. you wanna see some nail biting, non-heads up racing!
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Old 04-09-2012, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by fredswain View Post
Not everyone runs big 2 day races, nats, or series points. Many people just do club "racing". It's in the name. Practice is what you do anytime there isn't racing going on such as going to the track on a random day off and just running around. No transponder. No timing. No start. No finish. Just running. Street running, parking lot, back woods, etc. That's practice. A club race is merely a smaller race event but it's still a race.

Qualifying is racing the clock to determine starting position for the main. It is good etiquette to allow faster cars around regardless of situation or race whether that means during qualifying, during a main, at a club event, or at nationals or worlds. If you are the slow guy, you are the slow guy. Even real race cars yield to the leaders. That's how all racing should be done unequivocally across the board.


Most do race big events


Only "racing" is in the mains either way...


Heads up or IFMAR, both achieve a TQ....


The best interest for our sport & racing is to use the club events to train new racers.
Our local track only club races with IFMAR before big events to help the racers get use to the change ...

Works great as we get good "racing" in big events & club as a result...
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Old 04-09-2012, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Teufel Racing View Post
Fair enough. I thought something oval based and MX would for sure be two, but didn't know if there was another full sacle type that would also fit the bill, though I'm sure there's got to be others. Anyway. Dirt oval I'm a little more versed in, what they do there is what I would consider a hybrid start type. Simular to what some of the nitro tracks do. Loop is live/rolling starts. To me it's a little bit of both types and for nitro, I think is perfect. Whay that's not done on in the elec. side is beyond me. It can allow for a little more spaced out starts or tighter starts based on who or how the #1 car decideds to go. I'm sure that a different start type could be done for oval and has probably been tried more than once over the years somewhere. It's still heads up racing though, not against a clock which I personally can't stand.

Now coming from a full scale oval back ground, how many times have you seen someone get taken out on the first turn or thought they were and have things get overly heated back in the pits? To the point of going toe to toe. Not good for racing unless people like to see the friday night fights, which do happen. Probably more than they should. More times than I care to count. I've been dumped on starts plenty of times by cars that thought the best way to the front was through me instead of actually driving. Had it happen in R/C too, just a couple of weeks ago as a matter of fact. Come from Q8 on the start of the main, hang back and drive through the turn 1 pileup and come out P3, just to get dumped by a car that was behind me that drove through me going in a straight line.

MX to me a little different because while a heads up starting type, there's a lot more to getting a good gate start than just how or where you qual'd on the sheet. So much so that riders will often just practice that one thing for weeks on end. Also you have the gate pick, which while it's the MX version of a pole position, getting to pick the best gate can make a world of dofference. That is something that the RC world doesn't have for the most part, though has been tried over the years. I'm willing to bet that sometimes a rider will pick a gate based on who is qual'd around them, instead of just going for the best gate. Knowing who you're racing and how they are known to race probably has some influence.

Both of the above have been ingrained since racer first got in to that type of racing and by the time a racer of that type is any good, they should know exactly how the game is played and more importantly how it isn't played, though plenty of cases can be made to point out how people can forget ot just not care about that part.

Izod changing their qualing and starts? Didn't know that. Will be intresting to see if it works out they way they are planning out of the gate or if some changes will be made.

Your last point is something that I think many suffer from. Myself included. Some habits are hard to break. That is why I think both heads up and IFMAR can and should have a place even on the local club level. They both can teach those willing to learn, something that the other doesn't offer.
I still personally think that IFMAR qualifying isn't racing, and yielding to faster guys because you are both on your own clock doesn't teach new racers anything about how to race someone hard and clean. If you want qualifying without "racing" then put one car at a time out there like NASCAR and let them make three laps, seed the mains, and then let people learn how to start and race there. I'd bet that you would lose a lot of new racers because of the fast guys getting p***** about them trying to learn how to race, and a lot of complaining from the fast guys because "these new guys don't know how to race, they're just hacks"
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Old 04-09-2012, 02:08 PM
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We do IFMAR starts for qualifying at my home track. I like racing head up. The problem is that the IFMAR start does alleviate a pile up at the first turn but it doesn't help keeping guys a lap down from trying to "race" you as you go by.
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Old 04-09-2012, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Wild Cherry View Post
Most do race big events


Only "racing" is in the mains either way...


Heads up or IFMAR, both achieve a TQ....


The best interest for our sport & racing is to use the club events to train new racers.
Our local track only club races with IFMAR before big events to help the racers get use to the change ...

Works great as we get good "racing" in big events & club as a result...
Maybe where you are most do big events. I feel safe in saying less then 10% of the racers around me race outside the club races.
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