Race starts?

Old 04-08-2012, 06:13 PM
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I prefer ifmar. Just makes it fair for everyone. It is qualifing, not racing.
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Old 04-08-2012, 06:19 PM
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Both methods necessary ...



Heads up racing for club events so the drivers can learn how to make a few laps on the start with out a pile up .



IFMAR is for big events , 2 day races , point series , ect ...
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Old 04-08-2012, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Wild Cherry View Post
Both methods necessary ...



Heads up racing for club events so the drivers can learn how to make a few laps on the start with out a pile up .



IFMAR is for big events , 2 day races , point series , ect ...
+1, totally agree
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Old 04-08-2012, 08:00 PM
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I prefer the heads up style of Qualifying and mains for outdoors. At my local track, most the newer racers start in the back for the qualifiers(usually by choice). We have a very long start straight and sweeping first turn for our outdoor track, I'd say 1/3 of the SC races will have some sort of crash(which is not bad).

For indoor racing, IFMAR is totally necessary, but they need to seperate the skill level of the racers. Maybe have each racer do 3 timed laps(at my indoor track it would take about 30 seconds) then set the IFMAR qualifiers from there, fastest to slowest. Racing my Stock chassis Slash against the fast guys outdoors, I can hang with them, but indoors, I need to be with slower guys, I find myself constantly getting out of the way. When it comes to the mains, heads up, the fast guys in the A-main will (should) have clean starts.
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Old 04-08-2012, 08:27 PM
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I haven't seen this mentioned yet so I thought I'd throw it in there.

There are a lot of decisions and strategy involved in racing. One of them, like it or hate it, is due to the mear existance of the first turn pile up. Being somewhere in the middle of the pack as you enter that corner can very likely lead to being in the pile up, a good strategy would obviously be to avoid this.

By running IMFAR starts (or really any starting grid that spreads out the starting point), dealing with this issue is minimized or eliminated.

If anything, I think the possibility of a first turn pileup should be embraced!

I feel tracks should be designed with a wider/longer starting straight (a la supercross). A heads up start with everyone on the same line would benefit those that can tune their car for acceleration to get to and through that first corner. The added strategy here would be to balance your tuning for that first straight while trying not to give up your cornering ability.

Tan
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Old 04-08-2012, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by SnareTan View Post
I haven't seen this mentioned yet so I thought I'd throw it in there.

There are a lot of decisions and strategy involved in racing. One of them, like it or hate it, is due to the mear existance of the first turn pile up. Being somewhere in the middle of the pack as you enter that corner can very likely lead to being in the pile up, a good strategy would obviously be to avoid this.

By running IMFAR starts (or really any starting grid that spreads out the starting point), dealing with this issue is minimized or eliminated.

If anything, I think the possibility of a first turn pileup should be embraced!

I feel tracks should be designed with a wider/longer starting straight (a la supercross). A heads up start with everyone on the same line would benefit those that can tune their car for acceleration to get to and through that first corner. The added strategy here would be to balance your tuning for that first straight while trying not to give up your cornering ability.

Tan
Unless you can drive on a track that is only 2' wide without hitting the pipe this is not a good idea. It just won't work.
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Old 04-08-2012, 11:40 PM
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Ah, the age old debate that comes up every so often,

For the record, the ammount of time spent for quals and actual racing is for sure another topic, that is about as good as they get. With that said, I'll put my .02 FWIW.

IFMAR starts and heads up starts each have their own pros and cons. For me IFMAR is my favorite. It's the start system that I have used the longest ('90-'91ish) for the most part, so it's more of what I know type of thing. At the very least it's what I'm most comfortable with. Club race or bigger, doesn't really matter to me. For the racer, IFMAR starts are the way to go. For those wanting to watch, not so much. Heads up on the other hand is the exact opposite.

Does IFMAR starts take longer to run on a given race day? Yup, no real getting around that. The main issue here is that everyone wants their own class to win at, which compounds the time issue. Back in the day when only one or two classes were ran for most club racing that I did, no one complained about the starting system. I doubt that most noticed the extra time, but back then running batts that might last 4:30, any extra time to have that race batt ready was what you were after. I doubt that most cared how they got that extra time. Bottom line here is that, IMHO, there's just too many classes being run on a given race day. Go back a little to just some Stock and Mod classes with a Outlaw Stock or Pro Stock used as a bridge and be done with it. No real need for 50 classes of 2wd buggy just so every one can feel like they are winners.

Does using the IFMAR starts cause more pile ups in the first turn in the main? I don't think so, but it also depends on the class and the drivers in that class. First turn pile ups happen, even in some of the top Pro classes. No one wants to see that, but does happen. If people need some practice at not causing a first turn pile up, they probably need more practice to begin with. That is where the wiley old vets like me should take the time to help those racers. I will try to, but it's not always possible on my end. At the end of the day, "clean" racing is what all racers should be after. That comes from a few different things. Track time and practice, knowing the regular racers that run in the same class as you, taking the time to help the new racer to the class so they learn the right way.

There's nothing worse to me than getting punted in a qual and ruining a perfectly good qual run because some just aren't willing to plan ahead. When it's a new racer to the class, they get the pass and usually some explaination of why they should have done something different afterwards. When done in a tactful or constructive manner, the new racer is willing to learn. I'm totally ok with that. When you get punted by a fellow racer that you race with on a regular basis and should know better, the reaction is a bit harsher. To the point that things have got real close to being toe to toe. Not what anyone wants to se, yet does happen. I've seen that play out more times than not when heads up starts are used. I can understand that racers will have good and bad days at the track, but the fustration levels can get a bit out of hand. I guess that's the competive nature of racing.

When you have a class of racers that are all pretty evenly matched, one bobble, slow marshall, punt, can and often times does mean the difference between making the A main and not. Locally, if I do make the A main, I earned it and it means a little bit more to me. The class of 2wd buggy open/mod is pretty tight for the most part where I run and it's down to the one bobble, slow marshal, or punt that makes the difference of a good run or not. In that case, heads up starts are probably not the best option for that class. But, it's the preferred start system, and I'll go with the flow.
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Old 04-09-2012, 06:35 AM
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I have no problem with staggered starts for qualifying heats but the main should always be heads up side by side starts. It's not a very fair race if you aren't. If you can't get through the first turn without a pileup, tough. That's racing.
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Old 04-09-2012, 09:00 AM
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Heads up for sure for 99% of races. Back in the day, only Regional/National/World level event had IMFAR starts, and we were ALL better racers because of it.

I can't count the number of people that don't know how to navigate a heads up start in the first turn. Why? Because they only get that opportunity 1 time a week.

Heads up makes you a better driver, period. Better at navigating through wrecks, both in the first turn and beyond. Better at staying calm when your chasing or being chased. Qualifying is practice- for the main and everything that comes with that race.

Racing by yourself on a clock is... sorry... boring. You put together a good, clean, fast run, sure. But then you start high on the grid and get skiddish at the start, causing a pile up OR you don't have the nerves to stay in that position in the mains since you're never in the position of being chased when it matters.

Club racing should be heads up, hands down. It makes you a better racer.
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Old 04-09-2012, 09:10 AM
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Our track has started a new qual / main procedure that works out pretty well. We draw for our starting spot in the first qualifying heat. The starting order of the second qualifying heat is inverted from the starting order of the first. Your average finish of those two is what determines your starting position in the main.
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Old 04-09-2012, 10:34 AM
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I personally hate IFMAR style quals. I grew up with heads up racing for qualifying both in R/C and full scale. I still see people getting hacked or first turn pile ups because everyone jumps the tone screwing up good runs just as often with IFMAR style because people just want to race, so that argument really doesn't work. Heads up racing makes you have to develop a strategy for the starts, which is a skill that is lacking in a lot of racers (I think because of a lack of practicing the heads up scenario), so that you don't end up in the first turn pile up. Plus, it's honestly just not as fun racing the clock as it is other people
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Old 04-09-2012, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Showtime Racing View Post
Club racing should be heads up, hands down. It makes you a better racer.
Totally Agree!! It makes for good experience to run staggered heats and a heads up main. Keeps you on your toes.
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Old 04-09-2012, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Showtime Racing View Post
Club racing should be heads up, hands down. It makes you a better racer.
Practice makes you a better racer, not heads up starting.
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Old 04-09-2012, 10:50 AM
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With heads up starts I never tried to be the first guy to the first corner. I always hung back a little bit and let everyone else get tangled up. Then I'd go around them and just try to drive smooth. It was rare that I got hung up at the first corner. It was usually because of a marshal not watching where they were going.
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Old 04-09-2012, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by fredswain View Post
With heads up starts I never tried to be the first guy to the first corner. I always hung back a little bit and let everyone else get tangled up. Then I'd go around them and just try to drive smooth. It was rare that I got hung up at the first corner. It was usually because of a marshal not watching where they were going.
I agree. I usually either prefer to be on the pole or towards the back for much of the same reasons. It's when you get stuck in the middle of the pack with no where to go that causes issues. If you check up to not punt the guy in front of you and no one behind you checks up, not usually going to turn out well for you.
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