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Old 12-16-2004, 10:47 AM   #61
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I haven't found modified to be as expensive as stock. In stock the problem is always being underpowered. In modified, it's usually not as big a disadvantage to have slightly less power then the fastest guys because a slow mod is usually still pretty fast and they tend to last longer to boot. It is intimidadting for newer guys but they usually run stadium trucks from what I've seen. I kinda' wish they'd do away with stock and just have 19t be the new stock. The motors run strong with less agressive tuning so they last longer and don't require sub-nuclear batteries to go fast.
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Old 12-16-2004, 02:26 PM   #62
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They used to have both stock and modified 4WD racing when the YZ10 was out. 19Turn would be a better idea now. As far as the Academy SB goes. I'm not very impressed with it's handling. My Yoke is lighter, handles better, and is faster. Yes it won't take the hard hits the Academy probably could. But I also haven't broken anything on it since I put the RPM arms/carriers on it. Not bad for a car that is over 10 years old.
My whole point was that if AE wants the hobby shops to talk to them, then that is more like reactive producing.
"If you build it, they will come."
Besides the people at my LHS are about as clueless as can be when it comes to what people want. I've asked them about doing events and even the latest stuff. They look at me and smile and nod. In otherwords, they don't want to care. Let alone, talk to their suppliers and have them talk to AE for us.
Refer to my post about AE making the biggest mistake ever by dropping the ball on the 4WD class. Marketing Analysis can only do so much. Marketing never said that the first Elmo would be a gigantic hit. Same with the Cabbage Patch kids. Yes AE I'm offically calling you guys out on this one! 4WD will make a comeback as long as their are two manufacturers that can have cars with the parts support needed in the States. Yokomo would have gone ballistic over here if that was the case.
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Old 12-16-2004, 02:45 PM   #63
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We can keep doing what we're doing...
Run Losi's and Academy's and Yokomo's etc...
When Associated introduced the RC10 in 1984, everyone was running Cox Scorpions and Frogs. If enough people run 4wd, no matter what brand, Associated will get into the action. Right now, there just isn't enough of us doing it.
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Old 12-16-2004, 03:18 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by jbrow1
From what I hear that won't work. AE will tell you they need the requests to come from the hobby shops. So if you want to voice your opinion, you need to do it to the shops, then hope they relay the info.

you are 100% wrong, hobby shops wont ask for anything they dont think consumers wont buy, there just the middle man anyways.

You have the power as a consumer, write them E-mail them, call them, fax them.

Do you need it easier for you.

Phone: (714) 850-9342
Mon to Fri, in the hours of 8:00am to 4pm, PST (California time), excepting holidays.

Fax: (714) 850-1744
Our fax is ready to receive messages 24 hours a day. Make sure you leave contact info so we can get back to you. For best legibility, please make your typeface at least 12 point size

For e-mil use this form I guess,
http://www.rc10.com/feedbackresult/forms/help_form.htm
or just E-mail or PM tony

post these links on other forums and threads and see what happens.

It is also Likely losi will develop a new 4wd soon, it would be great to see some competition come from associated
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Old 12-16-2004, 03:32 PM   #65
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I'm 100% wrong? I believe I read what I posted right off of AE's website where people were asking about 4wd's. As far as do I need it easier... If I want to run 4x4 it'll be 1/8 scale. I'm just posting in here because I do have an opinions relevant to the thread. But thank you for making it easier for the other people who are also posting there opinions, and may want to call or write them to be heard.
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Old 12-16-2004, 04:39 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by Davidka
We can keep doing what we're doing...
Run Losi's and Academy's and Yokomo's etc...
When Associated introduced the RC10 in 1984, everyone was running Cox Scorpions and Frogs. If enough people run 4wd, no matter what brand, Associated will get into the action. Right now, there just isn't enough of us doing it.
I'd refer you to Casper's post back on page 2....

AE's saying there is no market for it is absolute crap. they are an international company, and on an international level, the market for a 4wd from them would be massive.
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Old 12-16-2004, 09:01 PM   #67
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If there is such a big market and AE already has the drivetrain tech, why do you think they are so reluctant to build one?
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Old 12-16-2004, 09:12 PM   #68
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That is the question everybody wants answered!!!!!!!

I have talked with Cliff Lett and Gene Husting personally about the possiblity of a 4wd and they gave me the same market analysis BS. I can almost understand the argument here in the states and I understood the gentlemans agreement they had with Yok for some years but given a global market and the break up of the AE/Yok alliance I do not understand what the hold up is?
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Old 12-16-2004, 10:46 PM   #69
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THE ANSWER IS THE MARKET FOR A 4WD ELECTRIC OFFROAD RACE CAR ISN"T AS BIG AS YOU THINK IT IS!!
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Old 12-16-2004, 11:12 PM   #70
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Ok folks....how about those that are claiming that the 4WD market is HUGE support it with some numbers....that should put the argument to rest.

If you present facts and figures then it will be hard for anyone to dispute your claims.

Keep in mind that AE has i'm sure done market studies, and set a target price poitn for entry into the 4wd market....then they investigate the cost of design, tooling and R&D to develop and produce the 4wd car....then they look at the number of kits that they would have to sell in order to hit the break even point to recoup the development costs based on the profits made per buggy while keeping it at the target price....and then they compare that to the size of their potential SLICE of the 4wd market....given how well entrenched the competition is in the market they would have to calculate their slice of the market to be a prety modest market share......

I think THAT is what they mean when they say that the market isn't large enough....it would be hard for them to make it a profitable venture.....

They COULD always raise the price to make more profit per unit, but then their volumes drop off and their market share gets even smaller and the profitability of the venture remains closse to the same....

Welcome to the wonderful world of business.
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Old 12-17-2004, 06:41 AM   #71
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As for stock vs 19 turn vs mod. I would like to see 19 turn be the main entry to 4wd buggy, but if it takes stock to get people into racing it, then so be it. With the right motor it is not that slow in comparison to other stock classes, but coming from the perspective of running mod of even 19 turn, it is.

Sorry to here you didn't like your SB experience. I guess different strokes for different folks. For me, I got a chance to drive a few of the 4wd buggies out now and the SB still is tops for me.

As for AE not wanting to be in the 4wd buggy market, I just can't place my finger on what it is. But looking at the RC18T, it doesn't seem like they need to do too much to whip out a competitive 4wd buggy on the market and if they set it so if uses common parts they already make, for those who run say a B4, they will be more willing to get the 4wd offering as they can run similar parts between the two.
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Old 12-17-2004, 10:30 AM   #72
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Saying, "I want you to make this," is a waste of time. If you want it so badly, make it yourself or show me concrete reasons why I should. So let's look at some numbers, and perhaps generate an idea:

The market for R/C stuff in general is not very large compared to the market for, say, video games. Unlike automobiles or kitchen utensils, the great majority of people don't have or want anything R/C. And it's not like NASCAR or soccor -- most people who don't do it now don't care about it. I'm not saying there's no room for growth -- I passionately believe and have stated elsewhere that there is huge room to grow this hobby -- but for the forseeable future we're not dealing with a major spectator sport here.

Further, planes are by far the most popular R/C things. In the US, at least, there are about four R/C planes for every R/C car.

Still further, on-road R/C cars dominate the R/C car market world-wide. There are about three on-road R/C cars for every off-road R/C car.

We have found that the US represents about half of the R/C car market world-wide. In the second largest R/C hotspot, Japan, off-road is less than 1/5th of on-road. In the US off-road market, 4WD represents about 5% of the total.

So, the entire 4WD class represents around 1% of the world-wide market for R/C cars, and that includes the fact that in Europe, where on-road is much bigger than off-road, 4WD represents about 40% of the off-road market.

If any manufacturer would capture 50% of the world-wide 4WD market, he'd have a whopping 1/2 of 1% of the R/C car market and around 1/10th of 1% of the R/C market in general. If a single manufacturer would capture half of the 4WD market, he might sell 5,000 kits world-wide over a three or four year period.

R/C car molds, and plastic molds in general, are crazy expensive. The "graphite" used to make R/C car parts is some of the most expensive stuff in the plastics business. Making a new 4WD car, even though you already have many of the parts "on the shelf," is an amazingly expensive proposition. I'm doing it, and I know.

Both AE and Losi have actually pulled something off without knowing it: They have gotten other people (J Concepts and me) to make 4WD cars for them without investing a dime! Yes, the BJ and the X - 5 are not sold under the AE or Losi names, but everybody knows what they are and where they came from, and, again, it didn't cost either one of them a cent.

In fact, AE can stay out, and Losi can get out (if it chooses) of the most expensive and least profitable segment of the market while still having products in the market! Further, they get to do what IS profitable: sell existing parts. There's no cost for molds or R&D. Just hang the molds, crank out some more parts, bag, and sell them. Now that's profit.

I believe profit is the only thing any successful business really cares about, and that includes Losi, AE, J Concepts, and X Factory. You earn a profit by producing a product that lots of people want and then treating your customers right. If you're able to do that, you're a success. If not, you're gone. That's the wonder of the free enterprise system, and why we're in it.

So it's quite unlikely that AE will produce a wheeler, because of the low profit potential and the fact that J Concepts is doing it for them. Will Losi make a new car? We'll see. But that's where 4WD off-road is right now -- for the larger companies, the profits lie elsewhere.
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Old 12-17-2004, 01:56 PM   #73
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Very good post.
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Old 12-17-2004, 06:02 PM   #74
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My geuss is the only reason why Losi came out with a xxx-4 is they had already up dated their on-road platform and wanted to completly kill off the xx4/ street weapon platform. There was no reason to update the offroad car at that time as there was no serious competion for them at the time. Remember, the XX4 won the worlds where the xxx-4 debuted. I doubt youll see a JRX-4 based on the Jrxs platform because Losi has already stated that they will continue on with the xxx-s.
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Old 12-18-2004, 03:38 AM   #75
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If the japanese (Yokomo, Kyosho), start taking off road seriously again, then maybe tamiya, Hpi and so on might get on board, when the world gets sick of touring car. Lets face it, how much more snoring car can the world take?

With Pavidis going to kyosho, it must be a sign they really want to win in electric off road again.
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