34LikesRC10B4/T4 Forum
06-28-2010, 12:01 PM
Originally Posted by Razathorn
Dunno man, punch control, drag brake, and total brake tuning are the best things since sliced bread on 2wd IMHO -- it makes as much difference as tires IMHO. That's not to say that the car's physical setup cannot be improved -- I'm just saying that those things are huge players and should not be ignored. It especially relevant since you're talking about exiting corners with a 2wd.
I just run the lightweight setup with 25 degree blocks and the factory rear hubs. Car is dialed-oroni and cheese. I let a friend drive my b4 and he was blown away at how easy it was to drive fast -- we both supposedly run the same lightweight setup, the difference being tires and esc settings. His comment to me was "Dude, this is like driving onroad -- it's on a rail."
I'd be interested in knowing what your factory esc drag brake settings are. Having too much drag brake, even if it seems like next to nothing when holding the car in the air, really makes a huge difference on the apex of corners.
I just run the lightweight setup with 25 degree blocks and the factory rear hubs. Car is dialed-oroni and cheese. I let a friend drive my b4 and he was blown away at how easy it was to drive fast -- we both supposedly run the same lightweight setup, the difference being tires and esc settings. His comment to me was "Dude, this is like driving onroad -- it's on a rail."
I'd be interested in knowing what your factory esc drag brake settings are. Having too much drag brake, even if it seems like next to nothing when holding the car in the air, really makes a huge difference on the apex of corners.
Current limiter is full and throttle profile is set at 3. I'm running 10.5 geared 25/75 with zero degrees timing on the motor.
I agree 100% that these settings can have a dramatic impact on the handling of the car. This is why I'm running zero drag brake on this very slippery track. I can change the current limiter (punch control) to remove some wheelspin and that should make the car easier to drive.
My car is not getting loose when I enter the corner, only when I'm exiting the corner (slightly after I hit the apex).
Davidka's suggestion to remove the weight in the back of the car may be bang on as the car also has problems transitioning side to side in a chicane and it feels like the rear end of the car wants to step out when changing directions quickly.
I will also try different tires in the rear as I suspect the Flip outs or Calibers will be the best to run.
I also want to try a different front tire as I need something slightly less aggressive than the Losi Red wide body tires. Are Jconcepts Groovy or Proline M3 ribs considered to have more or less bite than the Losi red tire?
Could you post your setup so I can have another one to try if I can't tune mine to where I want it?
06-28-2010, 12:17 PM
BobbyZ
Note :
Removing the rear bulkhead weight
means you will see less rear traction ...
Less anti squat
does help the car smooth over the bumps and does increase side traction...
Note :
Removing the rear bulkhead weight
means you will see less rear traction ...
Less anti squat
does help the car smooth over the bumps and does increase side traction...
06-28-2010, 12:23 PM
Originally Posted by Wild Cherry
BobbyZ
Removing the rear bulkhead weight
means you will see less rear traction ...
Two kinds of traction
side bite= how the car grips the corners
forward bite= how the car accelerates
less anti squat also
does help the car on the bumps and also increases side bite...
Removing the rear bulkhead weight
means you will see less rear traction ...
Two kinds of traction
side bite= how the car grips the corners
forward bite= how the car accelerates
less anti squat also
does help the car on the bumps and also increases side bite...
Adding or subtracting weight affect the car in multiple ways. To say the removal of weight in one end of the car or the other can have only one effect is too simplistic and narrow minded.
I will work with Davidka's suggestions as they seem to be the more sensible solution. But I will not be narrow minded and will try your suggestions as well and report back on how each performs.
06-28-2010, 12:27 PM
i edit , sorry ...
BDW
Yes, less weight behind the tower = less rear traction, easy to notice & simple...
BDW
Yes, less weight behind the tower = less rear traction, easy to notice & simple...
06-28-2010, 12:41 PM
Originally Posted by Bobby Z
Is anyone running different camber links in the rear to get more side bite? It appears the 1-B link is standard for everyone but I was thinking of trying 1-A link as this should also generate more side bite, right?
06-28-2010, 12:55 PM
Bobby
just try a extra .030 spacer under rear ball stud for extra side bite
you may also try moving rear hub to middle so car can rotate better...
Check your slipper, if to tight the problem you are having points to a locked slipper...
My T-4 is set-up is just like yours , but red ft springs in ft & 2 degree anti-squat....
Scott Brown set up ....
just try a extra .030 spacer under rear ball stud for extra side bite
you may also try moving rear hub to middle so car can rotate better...
Check your slipper, if to tight the problem you are having points to a locked slipper...
My T-4 is set-up is just like yours , but red ft springs in ft & 2 degree anti-squat....
Scott Brown set up ....
06-28-2010, 01:04 PM
Originally Posted by Bobby Z
I also want to try a different front tire as I need something slightly less aggressive than the Losi Red wide body tires. Are Jconcepts Groovy or Proline M3 ribs considered to have more or less bite than the Losi red tire?
Could you post your setup so I can have another one to try if I can't tune mine to where I want it?
Originally Posted by Razathorn
It is basically just the 'lightweight setup parts' from the standard team b4 lightweight setup but stuck with the factory rear hub and front blocks (25 degree). I also use the reedy 709 2s hardcase pack like they do, so you might want to add weight to get to that pack's weight if it is under. In all honesty, it probably doesn't matter -- you can probably make up for any difference in lipo weight by just fine tuning the roll axis (front and rear ride height) by a mm + or - on either end, just don't stray too far from the 22-24mm range.
The lightweight setup I speak of is this one: http://67.199.85.166/racing/setups/b...crcrc_2009.pdf
They drilled a 4th hole on the rear shock tower, but that is not needed on new kits or new replacement towers as the holes have all been moved 'inward' one 'place' so the inside hole on new towers and kits is the same as basically drilling the 4th hole on older kits. I just run the inside on the new tower.
I stuck with 25 degree blocks because I run on a small tight technical track. I stuck with the factory rear hubs because I didn't have the .5 degree hubs to try and decided I would only move to them if it still needed some help, and it didn't seem to. The rear hubs are really considered optional and not required generally.
Other than that, I generally run one mm lower in the front on ride height, ending up with 23mm front and 24mm rear.
On my castle esc, I run 30% drag brake, 100% total brake (dialed down to around 40-46% at the radio depending on conditions), and 50% traction control. These things don't translate directly into values that work on other controllers, so I'll explain how I arrived at what I have (note that 40% total brake is nowhere close to 30% drag brake... 40% total brake locks the tires up cold in the air, where as 30% drag brake barely slows them down at all when the throttle comes off). I go out with drag brake off and 100% total brake on the controller (esc). I then test total brake on the straight and dial it down at the radio so that I can use full brake without the car getting all sideways. I then verify in the corners that, if I want to, I can whip the rear end around by initiating a slide with full brakes -- if I cannot, I dial brake back up until I can and get used to how much total brake I can use before it becomes sketchy on the straight. Next I dial drag brake on the esc to around half total drag brake capability and see if that makes me want to always spin out in the corners or not -- basically I try braking before the corner and turning in at neutral and letting drag break slow me down IN the corner. If it spins out, it is too much drag brake, and I dial it down on my esc. Once I get to the point where I don't spin out or fight drag brake in the corner, that's where it is left FOREVER, unless conditions change so dramatically that I need less drag brake in the future, at which point, I adjust it back down and LEAVE IT, even if the track gets sticky. I want the car to drive the same but have enough drag brake that it doesn't spin out on the loosest of days at the track. I adjust total brake on a daily basis if the track gets really tacky or really dry -- drag brake stays the same.
The way my car ends up is at the end of the straight, before the sweeper corner, I just go a little wide, then throttle of and turn in and re-apply throttle as the car can make the sweeper corner, then when I reach a tighter non sweeping corner, I come in tight with a little bit of push brake (with my finger on the brake) and transition off of brake smoothly to throttle as I apex the corner.
IMHO, drag brake is what makes a 2wd worth driving now that brushless is here. 2wd without drag brake is frustratingly different than driving anything else.
I dial traction control in by first turning it off and seeing what the car will do without TC, then turning it up until the car feels like it is being held back on clearing 'blip jumps' or getting on the power, then dial it back down to just before that point. It makes a huge difference in the corners in 2wd imho.
The lightweight setup I speak of is this one: http://67.199.85.166/racing/setups/b...crcrc_2009.pdf
They drilled a 4th hole on the rear shock tower, but that is not needed on new kits or new replacement towers as the holes have all been moved 'inward' one 'place' so the inside hole on new towers and kits is the same as basically drilling the 4th hole on older kits. I just run the inside on the new tower.
I stuck with 25 degree blocks because I run on a small tight technical track. I stuck with the factory rear hubs because I didn't have the .5 degree hubs to try and decided I would only move to them if it still needed some help, and it didn't seem to. The rear hubs are really considered optional and not required generally.
Other than that, I generally run one mm lower in the front on ride height, ending up with 23mm front and 24mm rear.
On my castle esc, I run 30% drag brake, 100% total brake (dialed down to around 40-46% at the radio depending on conditions), and 50% traction control. These things don't translate directly into values that work on other controllers, so I'll explain how I arrived at what I have (note that 40% total brake is nowhere close to 30% drag brake... 40% total brake locks the tires up cold in the air, where as 30% drag brake barely slows them down at all when the throttle comes off). I go out with drag brake off and 100% total brake on the controller (esc). I then test total brake on the straight and dial it down at the radio so that I can use full brake without the car getting all sideways. I then verify in the corners that, if I want to, I can whip the rear end around by initiating a slide with full brakes -- if I cannot, I dial brake back up until I can and get used to how much total brake I can use before it becomes sketchy on the straight. Next I dial drag brake on the esc to around half total drag brake capability and see if that makes me want to always spin out in the corners or not -- basically I try braking before the corner and turning in at neutral and letting drag break slow me down IN the corner. If it spins out, it is too much drag brake, and I dial it down on my esc. Once I get to the point where I don't spin out or fight drag brake in the corner, that's where it is left FOREVER, unless conditions change so dramatically that I need less drag brake in the future, at which point, I adjust it back down and LEAVE IT, even if the track gets sticky. I want the car to drive the same but have enough drag brake that it doesn't spin out on the loosest of days at the track. I adjust total brake on a daily basis if the track gets really tacky or really dry -- drag brake stays the same.
The way my car ends up is at the end of the straight, before the sweeper corner, I just go a little wide, then throttle of and turn in and re-apply throttle as the car can make the sweeper corner, then when I reach a tighter non sweeping corner, I come in tight with a little bit of push brake (with my finger on the brake) and transition off of brake smoothly to throttle as I apex the corner.
IMHO, drag brake is what makes a 2wd worth driving now that brushless is here. 2wd without drag brake is frustratingly different than driving anything else.
I dial traction control in by first turning it off and seeing what the car will do without TC, then turning it up until the car feels like it is being held back on clearing 'blip jumps' or getting on the power, then dial it back down to just before that point. It makes a huge difference in the corners in 2wd imho.
06-28-2010, 02:07 PM
Originally Posted by Wild Cherry
Bobby
just try a extra .030 spacer under rear ball stud for extra side bite
....
just try a extra .030 spacer under rear ball stud for extra side bite
....
06-28-2010, 02:18 PM
Originally Posted by Davidka
I usually find the opposite of this^. This usually results in less sidebite/more rotation with slightly better traction on power, ie. helps the car square up more if the sidebite was already adequate.
Cept using a extra shim is more subtle of a change compared to a longer camber link.....
longer = less camber gain or more side bite....
either change results with less camber gain & more body roll ....
the rule goes like this
longer & taller for surfaces with high traction , shorter for less traction & bumpy
Last edited by Wild Cherry; 06-28-2010 at 02:35 PM.
06-28-2010, 02:37 PM
Originally Posted by Wild Cherry
Raising the stud on either side is just like a using longer camber link .
Cept using a extra shim is more subtle of a change compared to a longer camber link.....
Longer link = less camber gain or more side bite....
either change results with less camber gain & more body roll ....
Cept using a extra shim is more subtle of a change compared to a longer camber link.....
Longer link = less camber gain or more side bite....
either change results with less camber gain & more body roll ....
He's running a surface I haven't put a 1/10th buggy on in years. The track I usually run 1/10 electric at is pretty smooth and higher bite.
06-28-2010, 02:51 PM
Originally Posted by Davidka
That's where I usually find the opposite. Longer link = less camber gain/less chassis roll and less sidebite, more forward bite. Shorter link = more camber gain/more chassis roll and more sidebite, less forward. Track types could probably reverse the two though(rough/smooth, loose/grippy). You're right about it being a small adjustment. Bobby Z, try it and let us know how it works for you.
He's running a surface I haven't put a 1/10th buggy on in years. The track I usually run 1/10 electric at is pretty smooth and higher bite.
He's running a surface I haven't put a 1/10th buggy on in years. The track I usually run 1/10 electric at is pretty smooth and higher bite.
Either way , longer link or taller stud makes more traction ...
Dave , I've been running off the road 3 or 4 days a week @ two indoor tracks..
No Nitro this year however, just Electric 1/10th.....
Yes , I'm a official track rat
06-28-2010, 02:52 PM
Originally Posted by Wild Cherry
Bobby
just try a extra .030 spacer under rear ball stud for extra side bite
you may also try moving rear hub to middle so car can rotate better...
Check your slipper, if to tight the problem you are having points to a locked slipper...
My T-4 is set-up is just like yours , but red ft springs in ft & 2 degree anti-squat....
Scott Brown set up ....
just try a extra .030 spacer under rear ball stud for extra side bite
you may also try moving rear hub to middle so car can rotate better...
Check your slipper, if to tight the problem you are having points to a locked slipper...
My T-4 is set-up is just like yours , but red ft springs in ft & 2 degree anti-squat....
Scott Brown set up ....
My slipper is as loose as I can set it before it becomes too difficult to clear the big table top on this front straight.
Can you explain what you mean by 'so car can rotate better'? When someone uses that term I automatically think it has more steering but perhaps I'm not understanding that term properly.
Originally Posted by Davidka
That's where I usually find the opposite. Longer link = less camber gain/less chassis roll and less sidebite, more forward bite. Shorter link = more camber gain/more chassis roll and more sidebite, less forward. Track types could probably reverse the two though(rough/smooth, loose/grippy). You're right about it being a small adjustment. Bobby Z, try it and let us know how it works for you.
He's running a surface I haven't put a 1/10th buggy on in years. The track I usually run 1/10 electric at is pretty smooth and higher bite.
He's running a surface I haven't put a 1/10th buggy on in years. The track I usually run 1/10 electric at is pretty smooth and higher bite.
06-28-2010, 02:56 PM
Originally Posted by Wild Cherry
Just like in the instructions Dave .
Either way , longer link or taller stud makes more traction ...
Either way , longer link or taller stud makes more traction ...
more side bite or more forward traction?
I can see this being true to a point. Eventually the longer link will cause the rear end to dump over in the corner as the camber changes throughout the suspension travel. I was always a beleiver that longer camber links make the traction more consistent and possibly more total traction but I don't necessarily that translates into more sidebite on dry slippery tracks.
06-28-2010, 02:59 PM
Originally Posted by Wild Cherry
i edit , sorry ...
BDW
Yes, less weight behind the tower = less rear traction, easy to notice & simple...
BDW
Yes, less weight behind the tower = less rear traction, easy to notice & simple...
I don't think adding/subtracting weight is that simple. There are too many factors to include in how the addition/subtraction of weight will have on the overall balance of the chassis.
At the end of the day we are after a chassis that is well balanced front to rear.
I will try it back to back with and without weight and compare lap times and determine which one is 'safer' to drive and 'flat out more locked in'
06-28-2010, 03:19 PM
Lowering or raising the ball studs is a different operation than changing the length of the camber link. I hate the kludge of trying to say one is a less subtle or more extreme version of the other, because they really do two different things and can produce different results depending on what the issue is.
Think of it like this: Your camber changes on suspension compression in the corners. Changing camber link length changes how your camber changes during the compression. Changing ball stud height changes where you are sitting in this range of motion (roughly), much like adjusting ride height does, except that the weight stays where it is instead of lowering the center of gravity of that end.
Shorter links make for more camber change, so of your car doesn't roll much in the corners, a shorter link may keep the tire contact patch hooked up for longer. If your car rolls a lot, a longer setting may keep the contact patch hooked up for longer.
That's why we can't make blanket statements -- you may have too much camber change and want less to get more traction, or you may not have enough and want more to get more traction. Depends on the car and the rest of its setup.
In general, I subscribe to the belief that changing camber link length compared to the team or factory setups is almost always BAD, or at a minimum, the last thing you try, because if you need to change it you are admitting that your car's weight transfer is some how way different than the car works for everyone else and thus you need way more or way less camber change than others.
my $0.02
Wayne
- Changing ball stud height changes roll center.
- Changing camber link length changes the rate that camber changes under suspension compression.
Think of it like this: Your camber changes on suspension compression in the corners. Changing camber link length changes how your camber changes during the compression. Changing ball stud height changes where you are sitting in this range of motion (roughly), much like adjusting ride height does, except that the weight stays where it is instead of lowering the center of gravity of that end.
Shorter links make for more camber change, so of your car doesn't roll much in the corners, a shorter link may keep the tire contact patch hooked up for longer. If your car rolls a lot, a longer setting may keep the contact patch hooked up for longer.
That's why we can't make blanket statements -- you may have too much camber change and want less to get more traction, or you may not have enough and want more to get more traction. Depends on the car and the rest of its setup.
In general, I subscribe to the belief that changing camber link length compared to the team or factory setups is almost always BAD, or at a minimum, the last thing you try, because if you need to change it you are admitting that your car's weight transfer is some how way different than the car works for everyone else and thus you need way more or way less camber change than others.
my $0.02
Wayne
