I wish I could say that... :rolleyes: :lol:

So how do the oval setups differ from the circuit machines? Just curious to add to the knowledge base :D

I'd like to say I knew but I have no useful oval track experience.

Can you guys go in to shock pack and tuning with oils and pistons, I used all of your ideas this weekend and car was great but as soon as i went up 2.5 in oil weight front and rear the car had this mad bounce almost uncontrolable wheel hop while going moderate to fast speeds on my Losi 2.0 buggy. It was unreal as soon as the qualifier was over i put the lighter oil back in and the car went from a pos to TQ run.. All from 2.5 oil, maybe i was maxed out on oil thickness already and just went over my drivable limit. I only considered the heavier oil because the car was chassis slapping a bit all the way around but did not want to go any higher on the ride hieght than one more mm so not to traction roll due to the large bumps and cracks in the clay. I even went another degree of camer on the negative side to help the car slide over the bumps rather than traction roll but had a noticable loss in forward acceleration on the straight. I would really like to understand the how to's and what not's on the oil and piston selection and know more on shock pack.. Thanks , read the whole thread several times going back just to double check while making changes.

Very useful information! I've used this methodology to set up my 4x4 SC and now my 2wd buggy, both with great improvement in handling. I'll next use this process to set up my 1/5 scale on-road car.

Thanks Fred!:nod:

Not sure if I'm ready to start talking about the details of pack yet (laminar vs turbulent flow, oil wts, piston hole sizes, etc) but you might want to go back to the beginning and simply try tuning with stiffer springs. Fred went through all of his springs and found multiple combinations that gave the same front and rear frequency. If you have a full set of front and rear springs you could probably find a stiffer matched set.

:) I am ready to listen about the details of pack (laminar vs turbulent flow, oil wts, piston hole sizes, etc) so please, please, start talking about it! :nod:

I will let someone else explain the technicalities of flow through the pistons. I'll tell you a simple way that I know if I need more shock pack (smaller or fewer holes in the pistons) or not. If I've got the car set up well but I'm having issues with the chassis bottoming out on jumps, it needs more pack and of course a corresponding reduction in oil weight. If it isn't bottoming, I don't change it. If it doesn't bottom out on jumps but I can't get it to handle to bumps of the track fast enough, it needs less pack. Simple yet effective.

Keep in mind that depending on your track design, you may or may not have to compromise somewhere. The track closest to me has one such place. I can get the car to handle great everywhere but there is one small jump between 2 corners where the back end likes to bounce up if I go too fast. If I dial the car in for that spot then it may suffer everywhere else which would be a horrible tradeoff. I just deal with it. Tuning is about finding the best overall setup with the fewest compromises for your conditions. It is almost never perfect for every little scenario. It's the fastest average that wins.

Fred- I used your spring balancing technique on my DESC410 and was very surprised at how far I was away from the setup I had been running. The truck works very well and doesn't get upset as easily as before. Thanks for taking the time to explain your ideas here.

i will chime in a little bit on damping. what Fred states is true but i believe there is more to it than that simply because of the technology in oils,chassis setups and tires. there are many ways to skin a cat and this is how i go about it. in general you want to run as light as oil as possible and not chassis slap to the point where it upsets the car, a little slap will not hurt you but if you land a jump and the car squirts around then go up a half a point until you reach a compromise (more on compromise later!) keep in mind that your oil and pistons size/number have a major effect on how the car handles as far as weight transfer, turning, accelerating etc etc. have you ever wondered why putting the same piston oil in front and back does not work? this is simply due to shock location and leverage, front shocks are always mounted further inward which increase leverage its as simple as that!
the thicker you run your shocks the more sluggish the car will be especially in our old dinosaur tech shocks, think about it if it takes longer for the car to transfer weight it will not be as agile especially through quick left/right turns and also jumping will suffer as you will get very little rebound to get the car in the air.
i have sitting in front of me literally about 25 sets of experimental pistons, over the past few weeks i have come up with some very good information and soon to be released piston kits. Fred has been fortunate enough to see first hand how my car handles and jumps, first weekend out i managed to break the track laptime record by .5 sec in 4w mod and .4 sec in SC with only these piston changes1 but before we get to that lets discuss the dino shocks! the current trend is big bore/multiple holes and for good reasons, IT WORKS! but you gotta ask yourself how is that a BB shock with 12 holes and 30 wt "feels" the same as 2 hole 30wt on a std size shock? doesnt make sense, you would think that with that many holes you would need 60 wt to get the same result. well to keep it simple it quite simply is surface area/oil volume/weight of vehicle always keep these three things in mind when you are shock tuning. if you put 2hole pistons on a heavy Ebuggy it will never work with anything thicker than water simply because of SA/OV/VW. So a good rule of thumb is that the heavier the vehicle the more holes/volume you will need to compensate.
As you can already tell its more complicated than it seems but having the right combo can make or break your laptimes and consistency.unfortunately we are all hindered by not having the ability to seperate compression and rebound(building your shock to have hydro rebound is not consistent and not enough for off road). to go along with the tuning guide that Fred has drawn up, it makes sense for us to come up with the same idea with shock oil/pistons. what good is to have your springs perfectly tuned and then scew it up by not having equal damping on both ends? im a beliver in that you should never have the same pistons F/R due to shock location/leverage. so here is what i have discovered with single piston setups:
(these are my own piston designs and are 3.1mm thick, with .093 std pistons try 1mm holes)
2wd FRONT:
5 hole 1.1mm/40wt
2wd REAR
6 hole 1.1mm /40wt

4WD buggy FRONT
6hole 1.1mm/40wt
4WD buggy REAR
8hole 1.1mm/30wt

try these setups and get back to us with your results if you can, remember to start small on the holes (1mm)

im going to let the cat out of the bag a little bit but it will help explain: here is the scenario, this track is VERY bumpy and loose but probably the best conditions for testing shocks what you see here is my Caster 4w buggy with two stage pistons
Front 45wt 6hole 1.1mm comp 6hole 1.2mm rebound
Rear 20wt 8hole 1.1mm comp 10hole 1.1mm rebound
i already knew the rear oil was too light but 30wt was too heavy,but all i had at the time and the rebound was too quick (needs to be 1mm)
Battery was really low hence casing the triples! even though the rear was light it was very controllable and i was able to almost match my quick time, things to notice are how well it transitions between turns and how it jumps easily (so much that i have to adjust my driving). on the turn leading onto the main straight notice how tight i am able to make that turn with control!
http://www.youtube.com/user/Mantisworx?feature=mhum

here is my hyperSC (know for not jumping very well)
i have not played with the comp/rebound at all this is just the first time on the track with BB and 2 stage
FRT 6hole 50wt 1.1mm comp 6hole 1.3mm rebound
REAR 6hole 45wt 1.1mm comp 6 hole 1.3mm rebound
although i was able to SMASH the track record just like you see here, there is room for improvement, the front is too soft (probably go 1mm comp/rebound) and the rear is just a touch hard with not enough rebound (will go 8 hole all the way around)
things to note are the handling of the rough sections and jumping
and battery was also around 7.5v
http://www.youtube.com/user/Mantiswo.../4/wwvVw3rHa44
Still lots of testing to do on the pistons before they go up for sale but currently i have them on a few SC104X4' and couple of RC8's and the results have been the same: better jumping,quicker turning and the ability to accelerate quicker through the rough stuff!

Yup I didn't get into different pack front and rear but this is definitely good advice.

Marcus, I've been back to the track a few times and the car is handling awesome. MUCH better than the first time it was out there. I just can't find traction out there when it's dry which can get a bit frustrating. I also have no reverse so when that loose stuff on the sides of the track pull the car in, I can't back out of it. I definitely need new tires for that track.

I bought the scales and ended up adding around a quarter of a pound to the car with weights and it handles so much nicer now. Very balanced. Adding weight just seems so counterintuitive. Since I've still got a brushed system I swapped the 27 turn stock motor for a 12x2 modified. To say that it's a little bit faster is an understatement. The speed control goes into thermal shutdown after 5 or 6 minutes now though so I need to address that. It might get me through a qualifying round but not a main. It's currently not geared right but I've got a new spur gear coming to address that. I barked the diff too hard a few times and now it needs to be rebuilt too. Brushless will come along soon enough.

Aside from a couple of minor issues, a big one which is annoying is that I'm not happy with the Associated 1/10 shocks. I can get balance but reliability is killing me. The springs rubbing on the shock bodies annoy me too. I've blown the right rear one apart twice now on consecutive days running out there. I ordered some Schumacher big bores to retrofit onto the car. I'll have to give one of the pistons to you so you can fab up some dual stages for them. Let the fun begin!

you need tires! LOSI IFMAR pins/red and bigshot red/silver work the best out there. i have an extra 17.5 you can use.
AE is know for having crappy shocks, i have been tuning on a new SC104x4 and they are not much better, rear springs rub and the orings have entirely too much stiction.
your gonna love the 2stg!

I am running some d8/vorza shocks and am looking for some 2 stage pistons for them. anyone know where I can get some for the d8's? If no one makesthem for the d8/vorza, is there a DIY thread around?

I assume you are referring to B4 shocks? Easy fix... run kyosho RB5 springs. Not only are they superior, they are a tad wider and do not rub at all. With properly build new V2s, and Kyosho springs, the AE shocks are as good as my cougar big bores.