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Down siding jumps

Down siding jumps

Old 04-29-2010, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Casper
This is a lesson of slow is fast. HRH has been making there track for SC trucks for good reason. They are super popular out there. You need to learn to slow down for the jumps. Like others have stated down siding is much faster and I know this is what you are trying to do. Even though it feels slow driving the track as it is layed out is the almost always the fastest way around and trying muscle your way around just hurts lap times. Slow down and try and be smooth and in control. Use the power were you can and back it down for the rest of the track. It may not ultimately be as "fun" as going as fast as the car will go but if you are looking at improving your lap times, slowing down is the key. The triple double section looks like it may be hit the triple and roll through the double into the corner. Let the momentum from the triple take you over the double and then turn around and go up the hill. I will have dirven the track until this sunday but seeing the pics I can see where you are having issues. Slow and smooth will produce the best lap times on a track like this. It looks like a ton of fun!
or turn the triple + double into a quintuple! lol eBuggies have the torque for sure. I like my eBuggy because it's not a Nitro and I can make more amazing combinations out of jumps due to the instant power. Sure my Truggy has enough sack to clear a triple + a double....if you give me a 50 foot runup on it. eBuggy needs 5 feet. HELLO...new combo ;-)

I think the eBuggy is fun for making creative selections on my local track. Not always following the track the way it was intended, but at the same time if you can't do a weird combo in a SMOOTH fashion...it's not worth doing so all the same principles apply. Be smooth...get fast. Don't be afraid to try other lines though. Maybe you can quad it and roll the last one....or double and then triple. All sorts of options depending on your layout.
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Old 04-29-2010, 12:08 PM
  #17  
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There is a pretty big gap between the triple and the double as well as the double looks to be at the corner so if you were to have the motor to quint the section you would be in now way setup for the corner that is right there. I agree the 8th scales can do some pretty amazing things but most of the time not doing anyting "special" is the fastest way around consistanly.
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Old 04-29-2010, 12:18 PM
  #18  
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It's less about the speed you hit and leave the jump with and more how much torque you're trying to put down at that time. While you're going slow into the jump, you're probably hitting the throttle on the jump which will launch you further. As others mentioned, you need to adjust the throttle when you hit the jump and as you leave the jump. Get used to how much is enough and you'll be able to down-side the landing more regularly.
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Old 04-29-2010, 12:18 PM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by Casper
This is a lesson of slow is fast. HRH has been making there track for SC trucks for good reason. They are super popular out there. You need to learn to slow down for the jumps. Like others have stated down siding is much faster and I know this is what you are trying to do. Even though it feels slow driving the track as it is layed out is the almost always the fastest way around and trying muscle your way around just hurts lap times. Slow down and try and be smooth and in control. Use the power were you can and back it down for the rest of the track. It may not ultimately be as "fun" as going as fast as the car will go but if you are looking at improving your lap times, slowing down is the key. The triple double section looks like it may be hit the triple and roll through the double into the corner. Let the momentum from the triple take you over the double and then turn around and go up the hill. I will have dirven the track until this sunday but seeing the pics I can see where you are having issues. Slow and smooth will produce the best lap times on a track like this. It looks like a ton of fun!
I still have very little track time, and won't get any til nexy week. I am tempted to do the JBRL, but I don't want to be a road block. Every time I do a big event at HRH I just choke a bit. With the new track re-build they are not allowing 1/8 o run open practice til after the JBRL. I will have to get over there on Tues and just run a coule hours.

This discussion has been great, I know I want to downside as many of the jumps as possible, but that rythym on the take off is going to take alot of practice. On the previous layout, I was able to downside the infield table top almost every time (better than 80%), and just nail that 180 right after it. On the new track, the jumps are much higher and the take off steeper, and my car just wants to fly, even at a fairly low speed. Less than 1/2 trigger cleared the triple. I will try and do the brake tap on the up side. That is going to take sme concentration, as it is just not intuitive. I like the idea of hitting the brakes in the air to aim the car nose down. Thinking about it, that should act like flaps on a plane and make the air help push it down. And then use throttle to level the wheels with the ground before impact.

My shocks and front springs are quite soft. My rear shocks are also pretty soft, but a bit more spring. Weight bias is only 2% rear heavy. I have the rear hubs full forward, but it only has a 2mm adjustment range, so I doubt it will make a big difference. The chassis does not appear to be hitting on the jump on take off. But it does slap on the landings if I go flat. On the down side, when I got it on the triple (going really slow) it rolled very nice and used almost no throttle to make the double after it. Is it worth pulling throttle and then braking again for the double?? I can see going much faster on the 20 feet of track, but it opens up a lot more chances for a mistake. I watched some of the other guys run on Toes. and the very top guys were certainly powering between the triple and double. Of course, they were the "Expert" class, and I know I am not at their level.

Thanks for this discussion, I will keep reading along and take notes for when I get back on the track.
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Old 04-29-2010, 12:45 PM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by JSR
It's less about the speed you hit and leave the jump with and more how much torque you're trying to put down at that time. While you're going slow into the jump, you're probably hitting the throttle on the jump which will launch you further. As others mentioned, you need to adjust the throttle when you hit the jump and as you leave the jump. Get used to how much is enough and you'll be able to down-side the landing more regularly.
This is a good point, I KNOW when I did it very slow, I held a constant trigger and the car wnet up and took a nice arc and touchs just part way down the back side with the rear wheels a little before the fronts, but I was SLOW all the way around the curve and right up to the take off ramp. When I over jumped, I didn't think I was going much faster , but now that you say it like that, did I give an extra pull, right as it was on the take off face? I will try to be extra consious of all my inputs.

Down at OCRC, the big table was super tricky for me, and I finally just gave up and was holding dead constant 3/8 to 1/2 throttle for 10 feet into the jump onto the table. This would result in a near perfect down side about 80% of the time. Any time I was next to another car though, I tended to go just a hair faster to pace them, and I would flat land 4 feet past. And I would swear I was not goosing it off the ramp. They do have a few small rollers before that big table, and my car was soft enough to just soak them up and keep the wheels pretty much on the ground. But when I tried going a bit faster there, a couple times it made me fall short because it would hop the car and drag the speed down.

I hate the sight lines there asI could not see my car for a bit going up the table, so I had no idea Ilost that much speed until it was too late and in the air. A couple times it caught the tail on the end of the table top making it land upside down and backwards with the wing digging into the dirt. I see why EVERYONE who races there brings a step stool. Not having one is a huge disadvantage. I have not done an actual race there, only 2 days of practice so far. Hot Rod is my "home track" since I live just 2 miles away.

To sum up a bit so far...
This is just driving, no setup advice

Get the speed right before the ramp. This may mean braking on the approach if coming in too hot.

Don't goose it on the way up, maybe even tap the brakes. This should help reduce the flight altitude.

Once up in the air, give a little brake to aim the nose down. The idea is to make the body act like a wing with negative angle of attack to help bring the flight down.

Use the throttle before touch down to level the car to the surface for a 4 wheel landing.

Keeping the car on the ground is usually faster as you can put down power and brake when you get to t turn. Those do next to nothing with the wheels in the air.

A slower, tighter, well controlled line is almost always fatser than going too fast and taking a wide line, especially if it means drifting the car sideways. It may look cool, but it is not fast.

Is there anything I should add to this??
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Old 04-29-2010, 01:02 PM
  #21  
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One thing I have learned about my eBuggy as compared to my Nitro Truggy is it seems to react a LOT to brake input while in the air, so one suggestion for you would be to practice your takeoffs and try to NOT correct mid air. It will just mess you up at first. The best way to jump is to concentrate on your takeoff anyway. If you have the right approach, the right speed, and you hit it square (or angled if need be) then you will almost always downside it perfectly. If you give it too much and launch nose high....you can save it, once you get used to it, but you will probably crash quite a bit at first.

Ideally you want to be on power when the car leaves the ground. Now this might be wide open for huge jumps...or maybe you are only at 5-10% throttle, but either way...you want to be ON power otherwise you will find your nose will be too low. You also want to get off the throttle as soon as you are in the air, or you will find your nose up high. Just hop back on the power slightly before you hit the ground and it should smooth things out pretty well if you hit the downside...or close to it.

So applying the brakes on the jump approach is fine, just do it enough before the car leaves the ground that you can be back on power just before it takes off. Now for some jumps...you might want to be off power and a lot of the jumping techniques are of course situational and driver preference, but general rule of thumb is to be on power ;-) Start there and see what works for YOU.

We can give you all the tips in the world on how WE do things, but if your not comfortable doing them or can't master them or whatever....they are just useless tips to you.

I learned a lot of thing racing motocross for many years, and believe it or not it transitions REALLY well to RC Cars. All the same physics, WAAAY different perception. One tip from the pros I got while racing motocross was to drag my front brake ever so slightly when in a rut and it will prevent the front wheel from jumping out of the rut.....no matter what I did I never could master that tip. I'd always grab too much and crash, or not enough and still jump the rut....or I'd forget to do it and make it through the rut just fine. So to me it was a useless tip to improve MY riding.

Just drive and you will learn VERY quickly what works and what does not... I started racing last season, went from a mid to back of the pack driver to TQing the last club race Sportsman class. All I did was drive more....
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Old 04-29-2010, 01:30 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by MotoGod
Ideally you want to be on power when the car leaves the ground. Now this might be wide open for huge jumps...or maybe you are only at 5-10% throttle, but either way...you want to be ON power otherwise you will find your nose will be too low. You also want to get off the throttle as soon as you are in the air, or you will find your nose up high. Just hop back on the power slightly before you hit the ground and it should smooth things out pretty well if you hit the downside...or close to it.

So applying the brakes on the jump approach is fine, just do it enough before the car leaves the ground that you can be back on power just before it takes off.
Definitely. Don't brake when leaving the jump. That will cause your car to nose-dive toward the landing. Either a bit of throttle or coasting as you leave the jump.
Since you need to correct by braking mid-air, you're likely leaving the crest of the jump on pretty good throttle. Letting off the throttle just before you leave the jump may be enough to need less correction and downside the landing.
As for what's faster, at the Associated event at OCRC, the ones that were singling the big jump were faster than the ones that doubled it, even though the ones that doubled it got power back to the ground sooner.
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Old 04-29-2010, 02:10 PM
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I definitely agree slower can be faster especially with e-buggies. But that being said they are loads of fun, check out the video below, I took this a few years ago at Hot Rods and the track had a big table top followed by another jump up onto another table top. The best and fastest line was to downside the first table top and then take on the second jump separately. Just for fun and to demonstrate the brushless power (remember this was two years ago) I cleared the entire section. If you noticed I was a little excited and held the power on too long and got vertical so I had to hammer the brakes to get the nose down. Messed up my first attempt, the successful jump starts at 00:38 into the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTCc_m4vp9w
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Old 04-29-2010, 02:40 PM
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There are some lines on the track where it is faster to go big. It is usually when there is room to land and setup for a turn. If the landing is at a corner it is usually faster to setup for the corner and stay low to the ground.
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Old 04-29-2010, 04:32 PM
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What I started to do before I got kicked off the trackon Tues was to find my jump speed, and hold it before I got to the ramp. I had to make a very consious effort to hold the trigger at about 1/2 as it went up the hill to the triple and it flew nice, near dead level, and the nose dipped as it downsided, just a bit rear tires first. My problem with doing it this way in a race is that I was going this reletively slow speed for far too long. I hope that with practice, I will be able to come around faster, and brake it to the right speed just before the jump, and then hold the right throttle on the hill face. I am thinking the 90 right, 180 left before the triple will be a big passing zone in the races.

JSR, at OCRC, how long ago was this, is it the current layout? From the driver's stand, across the long straight to your right on the far side of the track, the right turn over a table top and down to the far right corner near the driver's stand to another right. Then jog left up the step to the middle of the stand into the right hander to the first smaller rythym section. Sweeping 180 left to the "BIG AIR" section of hills an the table top. Then just the sweeping left over another table, and the long series of rights, over the wash board back to the main straight. Does that sound about right?

That was the course I ran on a bit over a week ago. The big air section was odd. The little humps before the big table were just a pain, I found I just had to take it easy and set my speed for that big table. The "launch lip" at the jump up sure tried to throw my car in the air. Once I got the take off speed right, it was pretty good on the landng, and the next section was great, I just flew all the way after that big table. So many were trying to basiacally quad it to the second smaller table, and I easilly had the power, but it just was not consistent. It also threw you into the turn on the table too fast.

I am a big believer inthe go slow to go fast, but going too slow for too long of a run is going to get you passed. I am trying to find that balance on getting between turns and jumps faster.

My big reason for starting this thread was if I was doing something wrong on my jumps. It just feels like my speed across the ground is just so slow to not over fly these jumps. I may have to take some video of the fast guys and my car and compare them. How much if it is perception that I am going too slow? The car just seems to hang in the air, and it seems like so much time before it touches down again. I would so like to shave the top of the hill to lower the angle, so it does not go so high up, but people love the big air.
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Old 04-30-2010, 07:54 AM
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I was at OCRC this past weekend on Saturday, the 24th. Honestly I don't remember the track enough to know if your description is of the latest layout. That was my first time seeing OCRC because I happened to be in OC about 20 miles from there so I thought I'd stop by. Check out the recent Associated thread in this forum as it has links to the youtube videos of the Associated race.
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Old 04-30-2010, 09:09 AM
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You need to learn to accelerate to the jumps and then shut it down if required for the jump. Usually letting off before a jump and letting it roll up and over is enough. The jump will scrub speed if you are not accelerating up the face. Some jumps you need to power through others you need to coast through. I don't know how I will drive the current layout but if you are still having problems by Sunday hunt me or any one of the Losi drivers down and we will help you out in practice in the morning. I will need to get a pack on the track to know how it flows but I usually show up with charged cars to throw down right away.
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Old 04-30-2010, 09:57 AM
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I don't think I will be running the JBRL, I can't make most of the series, and Sundays are usually pretty busy for me. I will try to stop by and see how it is going. I may run the Sat night club race, depends on what the familly is up to, and I do want to pick up my 1st place trophy from the previous series. As much fun as I have racing, I have to deal with failly first.

I understand Jimmy's rule, no open practice for 1/8's until after the JBRL, but I need track time. At the last Hot Rod Shoot out, I had not been on the track for 3 weeks due to being sent out of town for work. I ran like crap on that one. This is not that bad, I raced last Sat, but on the old layout. I know most of the JBRL runners will not have had any track time on this layout either, so I won't be alone. I am betting the Sat turn out will be HUGE with all the JBRL guys coming to get a run on the track before the big event.

In any case I hope to see you guys there, if I am running or not.
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Old 05-01-2010, 11:14 PM
  #29  
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I ran the club race tonight, UGH!!

I finally got a pretty good line for the triple - double area, and even made a couple passes in there, but the back side double hung me out a few times, and I just could not get through the table top off of the big sweeper very well. I am coming in so fast off the sweep, I have to scrub off speed, but then the car goes out of my view for a tiny section, and I chicken out and turn in too late because I was waitint to see the nose of the car come up the hill. I tried going left firther on the driver's stand, but then I had a heck of a time seeing the 180 - 180 before the pit straight.

My best series of laps were in the main as I was finally getting a bit of a feel for the track. I was back to nineth on the first lap, but over the course of 5 laps got it back up to 6th, but I messed up. When the leader came around to lap me, the 3 I had passed, made it through with him, I thought they were 2nd through 4th guys, but instead I gave up the positions, I let them by easy. Oh well. I did manage about 5 laps in the 22's which was my goal. Too bad, I gave up 2 28's and a 30 letting through traffic I should have been racing. I didn't make any big driving errors, only went wide onto the loose dust about 3 times, and I just could not get rolling on that stuff, I spun the car out with just 1/4 throttle. Blue groove has a ton of grip ON LINE, but if you get off line you are hosed. I ran the nice soft bald tires which work great on line. When I got off the line, I might as well been on grease.

I never got around to accelerating between the jumps, I just gave it enough trigger to level the car on the down side of the triple, and held it there to the double and it was just about right to downside the double into the left hand 180. I did get brave and try and accelerate the following short chute, but it hung my in the dust going into the 90 up the hill too often. The good line was very tight on the insdie fo that right hander. Very few managed to downside the back double.

I am not going to run the JBRL, I was just too slow overall to feel good about it. It was fun running with some of the top runners, but I am not in their league. My car is right there on power and grip, but my skills are rusty when it comes to a course like this. I will need many more hours of track time to trust where I can push it without getting into trouble.
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Old 05-01-2010, 11:44 PM
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its all about the "scrub", just ask james stewart (motocross). there is definatley a technique in how to carry as much speed as possible into a jump and then drag the brakes just enough to make the jump. most of the time you want to come up as short as possible because then you can get on the gas that much sooner.
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