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Old 02-07-2010, 09:53 PM   #1
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Default 1/10 electric motor competition

me and my buddy have the exact same kyosho lazer zx5 sp with everything the same but I have the castle creations 1/10 sidewinder 5700kv set up on mine and he has ordered the novak gtb 6.5 velociti and on a dead straight away, who would win the battle? let me know your opinions.
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Old 02-07-2010, 11:29 PM   #2
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I say it depends on the batteries being used. I have noticed that sensored systems seem make use of weaker batteries better. While sensorless can make more total power with enough supply current.
If you guys are running NiMH, I say he may have a slight edge, big MAYBE.
If you are running LiPo I would guess that you beat him convincingly. If not, hook up the Castlelink and add a little timing, then you will surely get him
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Old 02-08-2010, 09:19 AM   #3
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I agree 100% about the batteries. The Castle stuff can take more current and make it into power instead of just motor heat, but that power has to come from the batery pack. How long is your drag race going to be? Gearing will play a big role too. You want to gear it so you top out right at the finish line. Gearing to high wil pull more current and reduce acceleration, gearing to low will top out early and the other guy may still be accelerating on you. The Sidewinder is a little bit of a limitation, as it is only rated at 75 amps. I have raced my Mamba Max 5700 head to head with many different sensored systems and I know I can just plain out power up to a 5.5R setup in a similar car on equal batteries. On a real race track though, the sensored stuff is more controllable in the tight sections and poor surface conditions. Pulling 6 feet on them down the straight does not always make for a win on a track.

Since you have 4WD, gear it for about 40 mph on a solid 2S LiPo and you should have a ton of fun. My 5700 system is in a Losi XXX-4. Bullet fast, but fragile as glass. Your Kyosho should be a bit tougher, but I still hope you have spare front arms and knuckles for the Lazer. It does not take much of a hit at 40 mph to break parts. Have fun
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Old 02-08-2010, 04:57 PM   #4
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we both run the 5000mah lipo's
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Old 02-08-2010, 05:08 PM   #5
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it could be pretty close, in a race the 5700 sucks, the 6.5 would kill it on the track.
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Old 02-08-2010, 06:15 PM   #6
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long story short, I have always raced nitro.......this lazer is my first electric ever and the guy I purchased it from raced it every weekend at the local indoor track and placed well everytime.......so how do they suck? like I said i'm new to electric so en-lighten me
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Old 02-08-2010, 06:43 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mudslinger2 View Post
long story short, I have always raced nitro.......this lazer is my first electric ever and the guy I purchased it from raced it every weekend at the local indoor track and placed well everytime.......so how do they suck? like I said i'm new to electric so en-lighten me
unsendored motors do not drive well on low throttle, they drive fast and only fast, basically what a basher would like, cheap, fast, works. for racing, you want a smooth motor that doesnt cog, and drives slow. its more controlled on high throttle too. they are much more adjustable and what will win.
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Old 02-08-2010, 07:01 PM   #8
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okay, with all that said what would be the best setup for me for racing this lazer then? any help would be great. thanks
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Old 02-08-2010, 07:04 PM   #9
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turn up all your settings to high on the sidewinder and you will win ...
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Old 02-08-2010, 07:14 PM   #10
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I also have a mamba max esc and I can't get it to pull up through castle link, I've tried everything.........anyone ever had this problem? any thoughts? thanks
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Old 02-08-2010, 07:38 PM   #11
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turn up all your settings to high on the sidewinder and you will win ...
ha, not.
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Old 02-09-2010, 11:27 PM   #12
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that lazer is fast im the old driver of the buggy and it did well, however like was said not much low throttle power, thats why i switched to a sensored novak but the mamba like sadi is extremly fast at top end just not much low end even with differnt throttle curve setups but providing the wheather clears up we will have more details on our drag race by friday thanks for all the intrest and post though check back for details.....
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Old 02-10-2010, 12:11 AM   #13
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I have to disagree about the poor low end of a Mamba Max and a 5700 motor. That is what I have in my Losi XXX-4. It has gobs of torque at any speed, and the control is very precise. The only problem is the transmitter trigger is actually a motor RPM control, not a power control. Once you can wrap your mind around that, you can get a better feel for what it is doing. You need to roll into the trigger, not jerkit, even rolling along at 1/4 throttle at say 12 mph, if you jerk the trigger to just half throttle, it will try to yank the tires up to 24 mph so fast that it will likely pull a wheelie. If you are on a tight, slick, and/or technical track, the MM 5700 package will be a handful to keep under control. It is not doing anything very wrong, it is just trying to do what your finger asks for, just a bit too forcefully. The Punch control setting can help if used carefully, but don't dial in too much, or it will make it hard to control the car attitude in the air off of jumps. If I was buying another system for 1/10 today, I would have bought the 4600 motor as it has a bit less torque when geared for the same speed, so it will not jerk quite as hard. The only other little thing the Mamba Max does that a normal sensored ESC does not is how the power will clibm with rpm, even as you hold a steady finger. Again, this is not really a flaw in the system, but a case of the motor getting more efficient as the ESC is dialing in more timing as the revs climb. This makes the motor hold it's torque much further up the rev range. This can feel foreign as all brush motors and fixed timing sensored motors all lose torque in a steady fall off as rpm climbs. The biggest mistake people make when setting up a Castle system in a car is they over gear them by quite a bit. The system makes so much torque, that it seems to drive fine and still spins the tires and makes run time, so they think the gearing is fine, or could even go higher, but all that does is make the trigger far more touchy. Get a feel for the fastest the car can reach on the track, and gear that speed to be the top out rpm of the motor, where RPM = KV x Batt Volts. On the longest straight of the track, you want to be able to get to and hold full throttle for at least a second or two before you need to brake it down again. If you are getting out of it while it is still accelerating, you are just wasting power and making the ESC and motor run much hotter than needed. My XXX-4 is geared 17:94 with 2.1:1 at the diffs on 3.3 inch tall tires (about 10.5 inch per evolution). Plug in the numbers and it goes like this.

Motor RPM = 5700 x 7.4 = 42,180 RPM
Spur gear rpm = 42,180 / (94/17) = 7629
Wheel rpm = 7629 / 2.1 diff ratio = 3633 wheel rpm
Speed on ground = 3633 x 10.5 = inches per minute = 38,141
38,141 / 12 = 3178 feet per minute
3178 x 60 = 190707 feet per hour
190707 / 5280 = 36.12 MPH

With all the talk of 60+ mph cars, this sounds slow, but there is not another 1/10 scale that can out pull me down the longest straight at Hot Rod Hobbies. And this slower gearing makes it so much easier to drive in the technical sections. I had a competitor friend last year with the same XXX-4 chassis, but running a Novak 5.5R / GTB system. If you revved his up in the air, the tires all ballooned like pie plates. His no load wheel speed was probably over 55 mph. But under the load of the car, we topped out at very close to the same speed. On the track, I easilly could pull out fron him at any speed, and coming onto the main straight, rolling at over 20 mph, I could pull out several feet with ease, and he never closed any distance on me. The only problem I found was his tires would last longer, so by the end of a night, he could take tighter turns at a little more speed than me. I attribute that to a bit more wheel spin than him, which is due to more torque. I am NOT a great driver, my reaction time is not what it was, and it sure shows. I handed off my car to a national level driver, and he immediately asked what I had for a motor in it. He had the reaction time to deal with the torque, but he had to make a mental adjustment for it, but then he was easilly turning TQ time laps with my car. All this AFTER I had run a 6 minute main and had not even let the car cool, same battery and all. I do trade off wins with the other 4WD guys, but when I lose, it is my driving errors, not the Mamba Max.

Full sensored is easier to drive, because it has less torque for a given amount of trigger, and the torque always fall off as the revs climb for any given trigger position.

Due to my aging reactions, I am going to be downgrading the car to Super Stock with a 13.5 motor, and to make it run the best, it will get a Mamba Max Pro. I ra a 13.5 on the old Mamba Max, and it had serious issues starting, it, but once it was rolling, it was a total joy to drive. The top end with the dynamic sensorless timing was amazing for a 13.5, so I am certainly looking forward to driving it with the MM Pro which will start it with the sensors and still use the advanced timing control to get the most power out of the "spec" 13.5 motor.
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Old 02-10-2010, 06:55 PM   #14
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i wasnt exactlly romping on the mamba at all especially since it is MY old system but however it is all in driving really not all motor like most seem to think..... i watch people with sensored novak systems drive all day long and fly and most prefer them over a mamba for racing but if your just messing around "bashing" mambas are great.... but you can have your opinion and ill have mine no sense in arguing about them all day long id rather spend my time racing and getting that reaction time
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Old 02-13-2010, 08:11 PM   #15
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I hate to say it but i think, I WON!!!! However the only reason i won is because bobby's mamba system spools out so fast on the punch its uncontrable no matter the throttle curve or punch control or timing? When with my sensored i have a little advantage on the control side of things as far as a straight drag race its really about dead even.... The drag was a lot of fun though, the track as well though he's just learning how to drive electric, he is doing pretty dang good for his first time, we both think that he needs to get a novak system so if anyone is interested in trading let one of us know.... He has a 5700 as stated before with box manual fairly brand new... some one please help us money is tight cause the family...
thanks and god bless
nathan
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