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Old 02-03-2014, 04:48 PM   #13621
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The D-Type pivot balls are only required if you are running the plastic caps.
Ahh okay then. Much confusion has been had by me today, now it is making sense lol. thank you, now I can work on getting some track time.
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Old 02-03-2014, 05:02 PM   #13622
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I would sure like to experiment with that setup to see if I can further improve my lap times. Perhaps you or fred can post his setup, oil and springs as well so I can give it a whirl. Are you are running on a low/med bite, technical track which is sorta bumpy? Trying to get an idea as to what setups work for which instances. Also how do you approach the turn, coasting, drag brake, or slamming on the brakes to hold a tight line?
fred is correct. Unfortunately it's not just something as easy as posting a setup sheet. If you do like to experiment, I highly recommend following fred's methods. It takes a lot of the guesswork and voodoo out of tuning.
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Old 02-04-2014, 06:07 PM   #13623
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Hey All, Can we revisit the ball diff vs gear diff discussion? Two questions here, one, what are the benefits of each? Am I correct in thinking that you can achieve more settings with a gear diff as you have many choices of oil. With a ball diff you really have a very limited range. What other factors should I consider?

Bonus questions...I've tried both gear and ball diffs in my 210 and so far I wonder if my gear diff isn't quite right…it always feels notchy and never seems to bed in quite right. My ball diff is so smooth. My 410 diffs are super smooth….Pointers? I've tried reseating the covers, making sure I cross tighten slowly and not too much.

Thanks for the help everyone!
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Old 02-04-2014, 07:45 PM   #13624
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Thanks everyone for the input. I had a look on petit rc at all the setups and from what I saw and in my opinion everyone seems to be running a different piston depending on the track they are at. What I was looking for was a piston that worked at most tracks and all I had to change was the oil or spring depending on conditions.
I spent many of nights looking at setups for the Durango and it was very difficult to find a poison that most ran. It is one of the most frustrating thing about the car. Losi, Associated, Tamiya and most of the other brand high end cars have a fairly common piston setup but not the Durango. After a week of reading and searching setups I finally decided 1.3 4 hole piston was used by Jorn at a few tracks similar to what I run on so I went with it. Been working pretty good and has been a good choice overall. I ran bumpy and smooth with just shock oil changes.
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Old 02-04-2014, 08:58 PM   #13625
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I spent many of nights looking at setups for the Durango and it was very difficult to find a poison that most ran. It is one of the most frustrating thing about the car. Losi, Associated, Tamiya and most of the other brand high end cars have a fairly common piston setup but not the Durango. After a week of reading and searching setups I finally decided 1.3 4 hole piston was used by Jorn at a few tracks similar to what I run on so I went with it. Been working pretty good and has been a good choice overall. I ran bumpy and smooth with just shock oil changes.
Thank you.

Drilling pistons now.
Going to try 1.1x2 with 1.5x2 as well.

Cheese
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Old 02-04-2014, 10:25 PM   #13626
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Originally Posted by 13Maschine View Post
Hey All, Can we revisit the ball diff vs gear diff discussion? Two questions here, one, what are the benefits of each? Am I correct in thinking that you can achieve more settings with a gear diff as you have many choices of oil. With a ball diff you really have a very limited range. What other factors should I consider?

Bonus questions...I've tried both gear and ball diffs in my 210 and so far I wonder if my gear diff isn't quite right…it always feels notchy and never seems to bed in quite right. My ball diff is so smooth. My 410 diffs are super smooth….Pointers? I've tried reseating the covers, making sure I cross tighten slowly and not too much.

Thanks for the help everyone!
Not sure I can explain, as I don't understand, the differences between ball diffs and gear diffs, I know I like the maintenance and cost differences so I run the gear diffs. I know some of the pros run the gear diff in the DEX210 and run between 600 and 100 cst oil. As for getting the gear diff "right" I've got an extra gasket on one side of one of mine to get is smooth. I'm not sure the QC is all that great on any of these plastic parts, so playing with them and having a couple to work with are always a good thing to make sure you can get them to act right. I have found that it doesn't take much to over tighten these gear diff's.
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Old 02-04-2014, 10:29 PM   #13627
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I spent many of nights looking at setups for the Durango and it was very difficult to find a poison that most ran. It is one of the most frustrating thing about the car. Losi, Associated, Tamiya and most of the other brand high end cars have a fairly common piston setup but not the Durango. After a week of reading and searching setups I finally decided 1.3 4 hole piston was used by Jorn at a few tracks similar to what I run on so I went with it. Been working pretty good and has been a good choice overall. I ran bumpy and smooth with just shock oil changes.
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Thank you.

Drilling pistons now.
Going to try 1.1x2 with 1.5x2 as well.

Cheese
I know a lot of the guys running buggy are successfully using the 2 and 3 hole pistons with the larger holes, like the new pistons TD has come out with. You might try those. My son is using them on his DEX410 and likes them vs. the 4 hole tapered pistons we were using.
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Old 02-05-2014, 09:06 AM   #13628
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Not sure I can explain, as I don't understand, the differences between ball diffs and gear diffs, I know I like the maintenance and cost differences so I run the gear diffs. I know some of the pros run the gear diff in the DEX210 and run between 600 and 100 cst oil. As for getting the gear diff "right" I've got an extra gasket on one side of one of mine to get is smooth. I'm not sure the QC is all that great on any of these plastic parts, so playing with them and having a couple to work with are always a good thing to make sure you can get them to act right. I have found that it doesn't take much to over tighten these gear diff's.
You shouldn't need an extra gasket to get the gear diff to be smooth. Are you sure that the crown gear is sitting flush on the outdrive. Sometimes the fit is tight from manufacturer and you might need to push the crown gear firmly down. If not it protrudes out further, thus needing you to shim with one more washing. You can see from the build guides others have posted. I have built many dex diffs, and we are able to firmly tighten all the screws, which leads me to believe you need to check the fit of the parts below.

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Old 02-05-2014, 09:40 AM   #13629
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Not sure I can explain, as I don't understand, the differences between ball diffs and gear diffs, I know I like the maintenance and cost differences so I run the gear diffs. I know some of the pros run the gear diff in the DEX210 and run between 600 and 100 cst oil. As for getting the gear diff "right" I've got an extra gasket on one side of one of mine to get is smooth. I'm not sure the QC is all that great on any of these plastic parts, so playing with them and having a couple to work with are always a good thing to make sure you can get them to act right. I have found that it doesn't take much to over tighten these gear diff's.
Technically both the gear and ball diff should work the same. Some will argue that the ball is better. Not going to get into that topic. Just gonna do a comparison.

Once you set your ball diff, it has a constant tension or pressure on the plates which offers resistance. In order to do a proper comparison, lets say we are using a 4-gear Durango gear diff. Not the 2-gear RTR version, as you can easily buy the extra 2 gears and upgrade it to a 4 gear. If you use the 2-gear version, it won't have enough resistance unless you go WAY heavier on the oils.

A gear diff running 600cst. I think that is kinda too light and maybe very track dependent, i would assume it will diff out a lot and not put the power down on bumpy tracks but give you good corner steering on a smooth track.

Keep in mind we are talking about the 210 diff, not other manufacturers diff or the 410 gear diff. A fully loose ball diff probably feels like a 4-gear durango diff with around 1000-2000cst in resistance. A tight ball diff, will feel more like a gear diff with 15,000cst or so. Normally ball diffs are set somewhere in between, and thus a good base of comparison for oils is somewhere in between those ranges.

I think a good starting point is like 7000cst. This is good for most med grip tracks. You can adjust from there.

The lighter the oil, the more steering you have in a corner. But a lighter oil will diff out easier on bumpy tracks and sometimes on exit. The thicker the diff, will allow you to put the power down better up to a point, and it will have on power push, and slightly less steering. I try to concentrate on being able to get the power down without diffing in corners, and I can always adjust for steering later.

Steering you can always adjust in the 210 via shims on the front caster block (moving it back), changing camber links, or shimming the links giving the front more roll, etc.

Differences. Ball diff has the same resistance regardless of rotating speed. The beauty of it is that it doesn't diff out as easily. Its normally better to run a ball diff on a low bite track cause it has the same resistance all the way thru. Too light a gear diff is bad on a rough low bite track, as you can't lay the power. Too heavy and you pull a donut.

Gear diffs are looser by default and until it hits a certain resistance provided by the oil. So what happens is that your initial steering is good and then it starts to push a bit, but you can modulate your radius with throttle. But if the oil is too light, the diff will diff out for a split second before it tightens up , hence why you normally have to run slightly thicker oil than the ball diff. Also as the oil heats up, it gets thinner, this is why you need to run slightly thicker oil or resistance than a ball diff. The punch out of the hole is better on a gear diff. It just has more pop and it won't slip.

I used to be a firm believer of a ball diff. Now I like the gear diff more. Its more consistent, worry free and easier to drive. I can lay the power down harder on exit than a ball diff.

Some pros have been using the gear diff instead on med/high bite tracks. Didn't Tebo win the 2WD worlds with a gear diff?
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Old 02-05-2014, 03:37 PM   #13630
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great info Dino...thanks
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Old 02-05-2014, 06:25 PM   #13631
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+10 for Dino, who I think has like +1 million now.

For a long time it seemed most of the pro's ran a ball diff in the 2 wheel drive class. When I say a long time I mean back in the days when Kinwald was driving the XX….

That being said, I've been testing back and fourth with the ball diff and gear difff. I've been running around 5,000 for my gear diff and I have tried 2,000 and 7,000 as well. It seems that 2K is a bit too light. Can you explain what it means to diff out? Is this analogous to a ball diff slipping?

I think what diff out means is the lag time it takes for viscosity to build up? This time would be longer with lighter oil?

PS, Here's Tebo's setup sheet: http://2wdmod.files.wordpress.com/20...dchampion1.pdf
Says Gear diff with 5K weight in it.
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Old 02-05-2014, 06:37 PM   #13632
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Originally Posted by 13Maschine View Post
+10 for Dino, who I think has like +1 million now.

For a long time it seemed most of the pro's ran a ball diff in the 2 wheel drive class. When I say a long time I mean back in the days when Kinwald was driving the XX….

That being said, I've been testing back and fourth with the ball diff and gear difff. I've been running around 5,000 for my gear diff and I have tried 2,000 and 7,000 as well. It seems that 2K is a bit too light. Can you explain what it means to diff out? Is this analogous to a ball diff slipping?

I think what diff out means is the lag time it takes for viscosity to build up? This time would be longer with lighter oil?

PS, Here's Tebo's setup sheet: http://2wdmod.files.wordpress.com/20...dchampion1.pdf
Says Gear diff with 5K weight in it.
If I'm not mistaken, "Diffing out" is when the inner wheel loses traction and speed is lost as the inner wheel spins, slowing the outer wheel which still has traction. It leads to your car slowing down around turns. Thicker fluids lessen the frequency of diffing out and lighter fluids the opposite. But go too thick and you just spin out, go too light and you lose a lot of speed around corners.
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Old 02-05-2014, 06:44 PM   #13633
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Originally Posted by 13Maschine View Post
+10 for Dino, who I think has like +1 million now.

For a long time it seemed most of the pro's ran a ball diff in the 2 wheel drive class. When I say a long time I mean back in the days when Kinwald was driving the XX….

That being said, I've been testing back and fourth with the ball diff and gear difff. I've been running around 5,000 for my gear diff and I have tried 2,000 and 7,000 as well. It seems that 2K is a bit too light. Can you explain what it means to diff out? Is this analogous to a ball diff slipping?

I think what diff out means is the lag time it takes for viscosity to build up? This time would be longer with lighter oil?

PS, Here's Tebo's setup sheet: http://2wdmod.files.wordpress.com/20...dchampion1.pdf
Says Gear diff with 5K weight in it.
As I understand it, diff out is when the power unloads to the tire with less grip when cornering, reducing forward drive.
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Old 02-05-2014, 10:51 PM   #13634
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That is correct, too much power goes to the wheel with no grip loosing forward grip. It also kills tire wear
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Old 02-06-2014, 05:03 AM   #13635
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It is my understanding ball diffs are less prone to diffing out by design. The friction between the balls and the main diff gear under heavy acceleration/braking will create a sort of "locking" effect. In gear diff terms, it's like having a thicker fluid under acceleration/braking but a lighter fluid off power.

With that said, I've been running an sc10 gear diff in my buggy for the last 2 years with 2k diff fluid and the car runs just fine on a med bite clay track. I have been thinking about switching back to a ball diff just to try it again. I only switched to the gear because it was cheaper after I chewed up the outdrives on my ball diff.
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