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Old 07-31-2009, 08:13 PM   #31
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How can you be ripped off from ROAR? You attend a sanctioned race using their rules. If you don't like the rules then don't attend and don't join.
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Old 07-31-2009, 08:37 PM   #32
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ROAR
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Not worth the $ as for ins your home owners covers you
+1, rules like 17.5 after just about everybody has a 13.5, 4s for 8th scale before realy asking anyone involved, looking after racers or manufactors? I'll never join them again.
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Old 08-01-2009, 06:45 AM   #33
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ROAR just has to wait it out. The internet will wipe out a lot of commercial tracks, then their will an increase of club tracks that will use ROAR insurance.
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Old 08-01-2009, 02:13 PM   #34
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Maybe the cost of a ROAR membership is to low?


I'm sorry, I know you mean well, but you have to hear people whine about $30 "just to run a regional." The same people who have no problem dropping >$200 on the latest and greatest speed control "they just gotta have!"

How hard is it to own and run an RC track? There was a great indoor on road track here on Long Island. The owners were dedicated to RC racing and racers. Whenever they hosted a race they got rave reviews. However on one particular day, a racer left in a huff swearing never to come back. The problem? They had the audacity to charge him 8 cents sales tax on a $1 item.
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Old 08-04-2009, 02:18 AM   #35
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I'm sorry, I know you mean well, but you have to hear people whine about $30 "just to run a regional." The same people who have no problem dropping >$200 on the latest and greatest speed control "they just gotta have!"

How hard is it to own and run an RC track? There was a great indoor on road track here on Long Island. The owners were dedicated to RC racing and racers. Whenever they hosted a race they got rave reviews. However on one particular day, a racer left in a huff swearing never to come back. The problem? They had the audacity to charge him 8 cents sales tax on a $1 item.
The best way to fail at anything is to try and please everyone.

The person who complained about the eight cents is the same person who hires a lawyer for $1000 to fight a $50 parking ticket. Some people complain no matter what you charge.

People who want to race show up no matter what. They would pay $50 and possibly $75 for a membership if the racing is fair and well done. My airplane club dues are $50 and the AMA is $57 a year ( $107 yearly ) - no complaints, the cost of doing business.

If a product or service costs a company $100 to make they don't go charging $50 just to make people happy. Either ROAR isn't charging enough or they are living above their means. I personally think they aren't charging enough.

If ROAR charges $50 a member and it ticks off 1000 members who do not signup next year which is 25% drop, ROAR still comes out ahead by $20K

4000 x 30 = $120,000
3000 x 50 = $150,000

Yes, your national entries would drop because of fewer drivers however if you increase the entry fee by $10-15 you still come out ahead -

4000 x 29.25 = $117,000
3000 x 40 = $120,000

( Note - no, this is not a perfect way of doing this particular metric but I don't know what the average fee is for national entries but the point is more revenue can be derived from better fiscal management.)

Why charge more? ROAR would have the necessary capital to spend on membership campaigns, create a greater interactive website - digital magazine, surveys to understand what racers want, help develop or improve private owner/club tracks (this could be financial or providing the business acumen to increase private owned or club tracks traffic/sales or just starting up.) The list is deep of things that ROAR could do with greater revenue.

I would also like to point out something I read from the ROAR by-laws:

Article I, section C

" The purpose of ROAR is to promote and regulate the sport of radio controlled scale model car racing, and further the general interests of all persons engaged in the sport."

http://www.roarracing.com/downloads/ROARByLaws2008.pdf

What that means in ROAR IS NOT JUST ABOUT providing insurance and racing rules. ROAR was formed to set up rules for racing and promote the sport and those that race.

One last thing...if prices are increased now, it will look cheap in the future when member possibly goes back to 25,000. With more members economies of scale will kick in and though prices may not go down ROAR should slow the pace by which they would go up with the cost of inflation.
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Old 08-04-2009, 04:17 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by jiml View Post


I'm sorry, I know you mean well, but you have to hear people whine about $30 "just to run a regional." The same people who have no problem dropping >$200 on the latest and greatest speed control "they just gotta have!"

How hard is it to own and run an RC track? There was a great indoor on road track here on Long Island. The owners were dedicated to RC racing and racers. Whenever they hosted a race they got rave reviews. However on one particular day, a racer left in a huff swearing never to come back. The problem? They had the audacity to charge him 8 cents sales tax on a $1 item.
Playing devils advocate (compared to the previous post) lets say the economy continues to be in the dumps and through research (or some other mechanism) ROAR finds that by lowering fees they more racers join the organization. (say 1000 for arguements sake over a year)

Member fees are now $20 and ROAR increases the members ship from 4000 to 5000 members (+25%) that means ROAR's yearly membership fees are $100,000 instead of $120,000 in 2008.

The next equation would sink or swim the ROAR's revenue for the year.
ROAR could leave the national fees where they are or lower them.

Past fee structure 29.25 x 5000 members = $146,000
or
Current fee structure 20 x 5000 members = $100,000

If current fees are held then ROAR would benefit, however if racers balked the lowered fee would put ROAR in the red for the year.

2008 - membership + national fee = $237K
200? - membership lowered + national fee same = $246K
200? - membership + national fee lowered = $200K
200? - last post proposal = $270K


($20 x 5000 note - see last post to understand the reasoning behind the metrics used. 200? = any year implemented.)

It does seem plausable if ROAR did lower overall fees and took a short term hit along side taking on debt (borrow money from manufacturers or lending institutions) to increase memberships through campaigns maybe a route to take as it could lead to long term membership growth.

The idea isn't necessarily that more money is needed but managing it better to work for ROAR as a whole to increase the number of racers and events is.
Also, the law of averages will work for ROAR's in greater favor for once membership has increased and more people volunteer.

In the end I hope RC racing increases, it has always been fun.
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Old 08-07-2009, 08:00 AM   #37
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I think your numbers are way off. If the membership fee was increased from $30 to $50, not only would you probably lose around half of your membership, but the turnout at ROAR races would substancially decrease, to the point where no track would want to host a regional.
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Old 08-07-2009, 09:29 AM   #38
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You should do some research on NORCCA. They had "ideas" like you.........look where it got them.
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Old 08-07-2009, 09:59 AM   #39
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ROAR could "OnStar" it. Give a free 1-year ROAR membership to anyone who buys a kit at HobbyTown USA. Something like that. That would tie-in manufacturers or a shop to the cause, though, and that may not be acceptable to keep things fair.

Most tracks aren't ROAR associated, though - so the end result may not be all that great. I wasn't around RC in the 90s or whenever it was "big" - will it ever grow again to that level? Are prices of RC parts similar or much higher than back then? I suspect parts are all much better than 10-20 years ago (Servos, Radios and all that). It's a good hobby but it is highly economy-influenced, I'd think. You're either really into it (Avid hobbyist) or a part-timer who has to review their funds. With unemployment growing from 6.5% in the summer/fall of 2008 to 10% this year (these are published not the "real" number) there is a big impact to disposable income.
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Old 08-07-2009, 12:13 PM   #40
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I think that a bit more cooperation between manufacturers and ROAR could give ROAR races more priority again.

I think the larger companies that have influence over the general r/c community such as AE, Losi, Kyosho, Novak, Tekin, etc. could change the perception of the importance of ROAR. R/C racers follow the Pro sponsored drivers to the races and that is what makes them popular. Companies sending drivers to Roar races such as the state championships, regional championships, national championships, and not sending there drivers to un-sanctioned races would make a large change. Race sponsorship would go the same route.

Racers go to the big races for 2 big reasons(among others). first to race themselves, and second to watch the pro's race.

Take a big race like the silver state nitro challenge (sorry, just the first race that popped in my head), pull out the race sponsors and sponsored drivers and you will have a dead race next year.

I think its going to come down wether or not somebody at the manufacturer's thinks that racing in the US should be organized racing, not organized bashing.

Something like maybe having race team managers from the above mentioned teams being a part of ROAR. Or maybe personal from the promotions and advertising departments from those companies being a part of ROAR.

The solution is not with the racers themselves, they are a mess.
There is no way ROAR can do it on their own.

I'm done, flame on
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Old 08-07-2009, 01:53 PM   #41
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I think your numbers are way off. If the membership fee was increased from $30 to $50, not only would you probably lose around half of your membership, but the turnout at ROAR races would substancially decrease, to the point where no track would want to host a regional.
If my numbers are way off please explain further.

If ROAR lost 40% of it's members it would still be were it is now revenue wise at $50. If ROAR races attendences dropping as well as fees would also have to he increased as mentioned in previous posts.

If ROAR raised prices to $50 you wouldn't join and race? I would join ROAR but I see no benefit now. The track we race at doesn't require us to have a ROAR membership but if it did I would pay it.

The whole point of the post wasn't if ROAR raised fees to $50, or to $35 but to chisel away at how to improve ROAR and get more people into racing. If ROAR had 25,000 members a decade ago and 4,000 as of the last finanical report something is terribly wrong. A poor economy can only be blamed for so much.

ROAR has not not made a strong argument to join the organization. And I do support RC Racing. I spend money at hobby shop that owns the track and I bring people with me to go racing who spend money at the track. ROAR hasn't to reinforce why we need to join.
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Old 08-07-2009, 02:23 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by RCHR View Post
I think that a bit more cooperation between manufacturers and ROAR could give ROAR races more priority again.

I think the larger companies that have influence over the general r/c community such as AE, Losi, Kyosho, Novak, Tekin, etc. could change the perception of the importance of ROAR. R/C racers follow the Pro sponsored drivers to the races and that is what makes them popular. Companies sending drivers to Roar races such as the state championships, regional championships, national championships, and not sending there drivers to un-sanctioned races would make a large change. Race sponsorship would go the same route.

Racers go to the big races for 2 big reasons(among others). first to race themselves, and second to watch the pro's race.

Take a big race like the silver state nitro challenge (sorry, just the first race that popped in my head), pull out the race sponsors and sponsored drivers and you will have a dead race next year.

I think its going to come down wether or not somebody at the manufacturer's thinks that racing in the US should be organized racing, not organized bashing.

Something like maybe having race team managers from the above mentioned teams being a part of ROAR. Or maybe personal from the promotions and advertising departments from those companies being a part of ROAR.

The solution is not with the racers themselves, they are a mess.
There is no way ROAR can do it on their own.

I'm done, flame on

Great post!

Vickers also has a very good proposal.

My idea about raising fee's was only to generate funds for longer term growth and to help develop further racing events. Though in most cases throwing more money at anything is only one part of the equation.

To increase racing it does appear to be a four part equation.
Get manufacturers + ROAR + Tracks + Racers to work together to mutually benefit RC Racing. ROAR should be the mechanism to pull everything together.

I hope more people give ideas on how to improve RC racing.
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Old 08-07-2009, 02:45 PM   #43
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The best way to get RC growing is to give track owners and race directors a course or two in advertising, marketing and "getting the word out". ROAR - same thing, our Region 2 director does very little to advertise their region-oriented races. Not good for "growth". Something more than "we just built a track - come race here" postings on Internet bulletin boards. It can also take the track owner travelling to other tracks around to put the good word in, schmooze and market their product. For every 10 guys you get interested, you may get 1-2 weekly regulars - so takes a lot of work.

No for ROAR, the benefit has to be tangible. If you join ROAR and don't race at a ROAR event - why join? Rulebook? Sticker? But if tracks know the benefit of the ROAR insurance, they can coax their drivers into joining or even just asking for a surcharge ($2 or $3) a race if not a member (if possible under their insurance).

When I raced BMX in the 80s, there were three "ROAR" type national organizations each with rules, nationals and all that. With one ROAR for RC it's theirs to grow or shrink based on what they feel they can do to whip up the racers into developing a stronger "Want" to race at ROAR events. Attraction by the racers comes with a desire to attain what is attractive (ie. what ROAR "offers" to everyone).
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Old 08-07-2009, 03:20 PM   #44
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As a commercial hobby shop with track, I already need more insurance than ROAR provides. So that is not incentive for commercial track owners.

Getting people in the door at our hobbyshop is hard enough without getting them to join ROAR.

For a non-commercial club track, ROAR is perfect.

As a ROAR track, I get $5 for each person I get to sign up to ROAR. That's cool, but its a tough sale.

I can pretty much make any race I want a ROAR sanctioned race, just let my regional director know, and he gets me my sanction number. Its really, really easy. That's cool too.

How do I make a ROAR race more important at my track have more value to the racer than a track that throws a non-sanctioned race? If being a ROAR race had some weight behind it to throw around, that would be nice.

Maybe If I throw a Roar state championship, the manufacturers required their sponsored drivers in the area to attend my race, same goes for regionals. The pro drivers show up, then the average guys show up to race and watch the pros race. (manufacturers need to work with ROAR)

The point of a sponsored driver used to be to display and produce results with products to create a demand for the products. That would work out great for tracks. But getting a sponsorship has become molested into a direct sale from manufacturer or distributor to consumer that left the retailer (and their racetracks) in a very weak position.

Maybe ROAR should raise membership fee's, then use the extra money to "pay-off" the bigger unsanctioned to require ROAR membership. Racers that already have a ROAR membership from a bigger race are more likely to attend a smaller state or regional championship.

Right or wrong, I'm just tossing ideas out there.
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Old 08-07-2009, 06:50 PM   #45
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The point of a sponsored driver used to be to display and produce results with products to create a demand for the products. That would work out great for tracks. But getting a sponsorship has become molested into a direct sale from manufacturer or distributor to consumer that left the retailer (and their racetracks) in a very weak position.

I have spoken to make retail shops and most say the same thing you have.

It does seem this issue comes down to purchasing power of a particular retailer and larger overhead/carrying costs in order to get discounts compared to the giant rc warehouses/ online retailers.

When looking at ways to capitalize on opportunities to increase sales it appears to all comes down to increasing sales volume. If a track owner could work torwards building teams or small clubs at track that compete against each other would help exponentially to increase sales. It seems like a tougher task than words can stated but this is an opportunity (business development)for ROAR to show a reason for existing beyond "writing the rules or RMT"

ROAR by-laws: Article I, section C

" The purpose of ROAR is to promote and regulate the sport of radio controlled scale model car racing, and further the general interests of all persons engaged in the sport."


I wonder how many tracks have tried the endoro racing/ relay concept where one guy runs X amount of minutes follow by the next guy and on and on...possibly create a point system with a handy cap if one team is stacked with very good drivers. Or, hold regular races have team points and indivual points. Mores teams should translate into more business for a track/hobby shop. The track/hobby owner purchasing power would increase and overhead and carrying costs would be lowered for new vehicle purchases though overhead and parts would increased but countered with higher sales volumes.

Maybe ROAR should raise membership fee's, then use the extra money to "pay-off" the bigger unsanctioned to require ROAR membership.

I made a similar statement and also played devils advocate and would again add "maybe" ROAR should get rid of it's membership fee or lower the fee to $10 and make the revenue up by more people attending races? Lower fees and more racing could create a win-win for track owners as more people race the likelihood they will need parts on the spot or the next day for a two day race. However, if fees are lowered and racing attendance doesn't increase your stuck with the lower fees and it could take 3-4 years to work back up to the $30 level. A real determination has to be made about how many new members would be captured by lowering fees before doing so other a real whirlwind maybe created.

Racers that already have a ROAR membership from a bigger race are more likely to attend a smaller state or regional championship.

Right or wrong, I'm just tossing ideas out there.
I like this site the best for RC vehicles because people have strong opinons, it does the hobby and sport good to get opposing views. I hope ROAR does a better job listening to racers (not just factory drivers) seriously discusses our views.
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