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Old 02-17-2009, 01:53 AM   #91
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I agree that rules for this class are needed if it is going to grow over the long run.

I also agree that RCpro did a good job for a first stab at the rules. much better than ROAR did. The rules the RCpro layed out allowed flexibility to see what shakes out in the class over the next year while still allowing it to have some guidelines for people to go by to build these things.

For the people that are saying that 5s and 6s are for building cars that are too fast and dangerous... I think that you are under the wrong impression. These things can be made overpowered and too fast on 4s just as easily as on 5s or 6s. The added voltage isnt for generating more power, its for generating the same power more efficiently and stressing the components of the system less.

While the 3x10 minutes mains are proabably fine, I personally am a fan of the longer single main format. I think that a single 15 minute main is sufficient to decide a race.

Plus I think that the longer main length also forces people to run a more reasonably powered setup. Overpowered setups will not make the run time needed to finish the slightly longer race.

To take it one step farther...Combining a 15 minute main with a maximum battery weight rule (notice I said max BATTERY weight, not max car weight) would force people to run cars that are reasonably powered to make the run time. A setup that is overpowered will burn more energy and you wouldnt be able to make the run time. I see it as part of the "strategy" to set the car up properly to make the run time on the energy you are allowed to carry. It would eliminate the discusion on cell count/voltage also. A 4s 5000mah, or 5s 4000mah, or 6s 3333mah are all going to weigh about the same and all carry the same amount of total energy and therefor would level the playing field to how much power you can lay down and still make the run time needed to finish.

You can look at this like the nitro rules. They have a max fuel tank size and guys run less motor (smaller carb restictor, diferent pipe that makes less power but is more efficient) to extend the run time and have to pit less often and can extend the run time on a tank to 10+ minutes. Then there are guys who run flat out balls to the wall motors that have to pit every 7 minutes. It makes a big difference in a 30 minute race if you have to pit twice or have to pit 3 times.

It would be similar in the electric 1/8. The guys that push the power limit may not make run time or may have to drive more conservatively to make the run time and on the flip side the guys who run more conservative setups dont have to worry can push their more efficient setups as hard as they want and not worry about it but may not have quite the same power.

The thing that makes this class different is it came up as an outlaw style class. Similar to the truggies. Its leagal to run .28 in the truggy class but most dont as they find the lower powered more efficient .21 engines are "faster" in the lap times and easier to be consistent with. Over time people will figure this out with the electric 1/8 as well. Right now its just still so facinating to people that so much power can be packed into one of these little cars it hard for people to help themselves from going crazy with it. But in the long run controlled consistency will win out and as the class develops people will recognize that here just like they did everywhere else.
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Old 02-17-2009, 04:51 AM   #92
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I agree that rules for this class are needed if it is going to grow over the long run.

I also agree that RCpro did a good job for a first stab at the rules. much better than ROAR did. The rules the RCpro layed out allowed flexibility to see what shakes out in the class over the next year while still allowing it to have some guidelines for people to go by to build these things.

For the people that are saying that 5s and 6s are for building cars that are too fast and dangerous... I think that you are under the wrong impression. These things can be made overpowered and too fast on 4s just as easily as on 5s or 6s. The added voltage isnt for generating more power, its for generating the same power more efficiently and stressing the components of the system less.

While the 3x10 minutes mains are proabably fine, I personally am a fan of the longer single main format. I think that a single 15 minute main is sufficient to decide a race.

Plus I think that the longer main length also forces people to run a more reasonably powered setup. Overpowered setups will not make the run time needed to finish the slightly longer race.

To take it one step farther...Combining a 15 minute main with a maximum battery weight rule (notice I said max BATTERY weight, not max car weight) would force people to run cars that are reasonably powered to make the run time. A setup that is overpowered will burn more energy and you wouldnt be able to make the run time. I see it as part of the "strategy" to set the car up properly to make the run time on the energy you are allowed to carry. It would eliminate the discusion on cell count/voltage also. A 4s 5000mah, or 5s 4000mah, or 6s 3333mah are all going to weigh about the same and all carry the same amount of total energy and therefor would level the playing field to how much power you can lay down and still make the run time needed to finish.

You can look at this like the nitro rules. They have a max fuel tank size and guys run less motor (smaller carb restictor, diferent pipe that makes less power but is more efficient) to extend the run time and have to pit less often and can extend the run time on a tank to 10+ minutes. Then there are guys who run flat out balls to the wall motors that have to pit every 7 minutes. It makes a big difference in a 30 minute race if you have to pit twice or have to pit 3 times.

It would be similar in the electric 1/8. The guys that push the power limit may not make run time or may have to drive more conservatively to make the run time and on the flip side the guys who run more conservative setups dont have to worry can push their more efficient setups as hard as they want and not worry about it but may not have quite the same power.

The thing that makes this class different is it came up as an outlaw style class. Similar to the truggies. Its leagal to run .28 in the truggy class but most dont as they find the lower powered more efficient .21 engines are "faster" in the lap times and easier to be consistent with. Over time people will figure this out with the electric 1/8 as well. Right now its just still so facinating to people that so much power can be packed into one of these little cars it hard for people to help themselves from going crazy with it. But in the long run controlled consistency will win out and as the class develops people will recognize that here just like they did everywhere else.
yes i agree with this roar should follow the pro series and see what shakes out .....great comments here ....good explainion thanks
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Old 02-17-2009, 08:37 AM   #93
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Why does everyone think 1/8E's need to run 20-30 min mains? If you want that run nitro! Fast change pits stops with lipo why??? I understand 4-5-6s thing but why do we need to run such long races? 5 qual and 10-15min mains are good. If you can run a 4s 2200kv for 15 min or a 6s 1300kv cool but at some point there needs to be a class.

do you guys run 1/10 4wd stock and mod together? 15 min main for both? NO!Can you run 7.4 or 11.1 in a 1/10 car in mod class? NO!

So why would we run 4s with a 6s? Do we have class for each battery count? No! that wouldn't work.
I understand alot of the guys that were running 8E's with nitro cars because there were no other electric cars to run with but we need rules to run electric with electric.

min weight: is cool what ever it is to me.
max weight: stupid!
cell count: NEED TO BE SAME!
motors? need rules there also
hardcase or soft? Hardcase for safety only (harder to poke hole threw hardcase than soft) hole = FIRE!!!
Doing it your way will splinter the class. 4S simply WILL NOT WORK on some tracks, it's too hot outside. Limiting the motors doesn't make any sense either, and for the same reason as limiting to 4S. People already have lots of $$ invested, and I can promise you they won't go out and buy a new one just because ROAR says so.

It's really quite simple. If ROAR chose to ignore the racers and implement rules that don't work, they'll get ignored. Club level is likely to be the primary developer of what works.

How about this, a spec class for all the people that want to run 4S/spec motor, and a mod class for every one else. Watch and tell me which one is bigger in 6 months.

As for the length of the race. Why should nitro be the only ones aloud to run long mains? Part of the appeal of 8th scale, is they're tough enough to last a long main. Also, you have to use different tactics for longer races. So if it doesn't work for you, change it. Some of us would enjoy the longer mains.
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Old 02-17-2009, 08:54 AM   #94
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3- 10min mains gets my vote!

I don't have a problem with longer mains, but to ask 15 min of RACING out of a moderately priced system is a bit much. I can make 15min, but I'm not racing, I am cruising trying to save battery. This is racing right? Yes I could run a bigger battery no problem, but what about the other guy who doesn't want to own 6 different packs to work with the different race times.

With my NEU, sub 8lb MBX6, 4900mah battery, and RACING, I can make it 12-13min. I'm trying to win not just "do good" to make the 15min. I'd also like to do a warm up lap or two just to get the diffes moving and free things up before the tone.

My system is pretty much average, and I think and not too much to ask for the average joe to afford. Sure a 6s lower KV system could make the 15min, probably even 20, but what about the majority. I want more people out to race, and not feel like they can't compete when they are swapping batteries with 2 min left in the race.

Also. Just cause someone can make a 20min main racing with the nitros, is that racing? I don't want to win cause I didn't have to come in for pit. I want to win cause I can drive better.

I also think 3 10min mains is nice cause you have more equal racing. If you get stuffed in a turn or a lazy corner marshal in one race, you have 2 more races to come back up in.
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Old 02-17-2009, 08:59 AM   #95
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3 10 min A-mains would be dialed !!
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Old 02-17-2009, 09:40 AM   #96
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Yes but MaxAmps is the most expensive battery on the market, everyone knows they are all show and no go, they wont even tell you where they get their cells from, or show technical info, etc. Price compare with another company, like SMC. SMC is legit.

I like hardcases if they get more prevelant, im sure they will.
Just to play devil's advocate, SMC won't tell you where they get there cells from either

In the end, go with what you feel is priced right for what you feel you are getting. I think every company can benefit by having a bang for your buck pack that doesn't break the wallet, and also have there high priced screamers.


As for the whole hardcased thing, ROAR is invested in that (and by that I mean, thats there baby, they are gonna run with it). Can I personally see a benefit, for puncture issues possibly, but, impact issues, seems the cells are now just slamming into the case instead of the tray wall with basically the same effect. Seems it would be easier if companies just made a sealed battery tray that the packs go in.

I also believe that a 10-10-10 format for heats and mains is the way to go. I am not sure why we feel our heat needs to be less than our mains, when we are not bound by having to pit like a nitro. A nitro heat and main race usually does about 5 - 8 minutes of heat time (race and warmup), and a 15 minute to 30 minute main. So if you figure 5 minute nitro heats with warmups, and 20 minute main, our actual electric track time at the 10-10-10 format workouts out to about the same as the nitros 5-5-20 (with warmups) setup. More equitable race time.

Who here has liked being out there after there 5 minute electric main for 30 minutes to corner the nitros?

You are pushing it when asking a 5000mah 4S lipo to make 15 minutes. Regardless of what you may personally experience on your track, a few changes to the track setup and / or driving style and you can find out how much of a difference it makes in making runtime. Best bet, go with a time that everyone can make on a 4S 5000mah pack with extremely agressive driving.
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Old 02-17-2009, 11:17 AM   #97
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Old 02-17-2009, 12:10 PM   #98
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I agree with JHautz.

I want 15 minute mains. These cars are more than capable of running 15 minutes with absolutely no problems. I do it every weekend. No need to short change ourselves. I have done it on huge tracks, blown out tracks, indoor tracks, rough tracks. sub freezing to 95 degree weather. A proper setup can run 15 minutes with plenty of battery to spare. I have never dumped in a 15 minute main.

Setting a 15 minute main will force people to not over power their cars because they won't be able to reliably run high kv motors and reasonably sized batteries. They will have to get a more efficient setup. This tackles the problem of needing multiple mains and driver's setting up overpowered cars.

If you want to run a high kv setup on 4s, that is your prerogative. I have done it too. Just don't complain you can't make 15 minutes.

Another easy fix is setting rpm limitations. Say 40,000 max rpm. This means you have to pick the appropriate kv motor with the right voltage.

1/8 electric isn't a beginner class. Slash is a beginner class. Make the rules 4s-6s, standard buggy size, soft or hard case lipo and must charge in lipo sack. End of story. No need to make rules just to be making rules. Driving 8lb vehicles that can reach 70mph just by changing voltage is not for beginners, so they shouldn't be catered to. Either do it right or find another class that can be a little more accommodating.
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Old 02-17-2009, 01:52 PM   #99
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Don't limit the battery and power systems in any way. It's the only way to keep companies creating new and better systems.

Hardcases again are a hilarious concept for me coming from Heli and Aircraft. You guys even build HARD trays that cover 3/4 of the pack with one side usually metal (chassis)! We strap very large lipo batteries on the very front of our helis with no protection! Aircraft aren't any better, I've seen lipos ejected during flight, fall over 100 feet at high speed and not start a fire on impact.

Their is also no reason to approve every stupid battery that comes to market. All the cells that we use in the hobby ALL come from one of 3 manufacturers. Also the VAST majority of fires occur during the charging, and modern chargers with integrated balancer eliminate 90 percent of the danger associated with charging lipo. The last 10 percent is simply NEVER charging a damaged pack. If your going to mandate anything for safety it would be chargers that monitor each cell's voltage during the entire charge cycle.
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Old 02-17-2009, 01:53 PM   #100
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My 2 cents,
I like the idea of 1/8 being a semi "open" class.

I want to see how these nicer 4s setups run this summer here in AZ (SRS) when its 115 standing in the pits. Dont get me wrong, I think they perform fine....for now.

I built my car on 6s, 1500kv just to be safe and im positive Ill be able to run my car when its 115 outside.

Cant we just have Kv limits per cell count rules? With like a max battery weight?

I also dont like the hard case thing because the puffy cell deal. I wish there was a type of battery tray that protected the battery but let you remove it to examine your pack.
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Old 02-17-2009, 02:37 PM   #101
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My 2 cents,
I like the idea of 1/8 being a semi "open" class.

I want to see how these nicer 4s setups run this summer here in AZ (SRS) when its 115 standing in the pits. Dont get me wrong, I think they perform fine....for now.

I built my car on 6s, 1500kv just to be safe and im positive Ill be able to run my car when its 115 outside.

Cant we just have Kv limits per cell count rules? With like a max battery weight?

I also dont like the hard case thing because the puffy cell deal. I wish there was a type of battery tray that protected the battery but let you remove it to examine your pack.
That's what I'm screaming! Make a single TRAY that lots of batteries will fit in. That way, if you go to another event with different rules/conditions, you aren't stuck with one battery.
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Old 02-17-2009, 02:49 PM   #102
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I agree with JHautz.

I want 15 minute mains. These cars are more than capable of running 15 minutes with absolutely no problems. I do it every weekend. No need to short change ourselves. I have done it on huge tracks, blown out tracks, indoor tracks, rough tracks. sub freezing to 95 degree weather. A proper setup can run 15 minutes with plenty of battery to spare. I have never dumped in a 15 minute main.

Setting a 15 minute main will force people to not over power their cars because they won't be able to reliably run high kv motors and reasonably sized batteries. They will have to get a more efficient setup. This tackles the problem of needing multiple mains and driver's setting up overpowered cars.

If you want to run a high kv setup on 4s, that is your prerogative. I have done it too. Just don't complain you can't make 15 minutes.

Another easy fix is setting rpm limitations. Say 40,000 max rpm. This means you have to pick the appropriate kv motor with the right voltage.

1/8 electric isn't a beginner class. Slash is a beginner class. Make the rules 4s-6s, standard buggy size, soft or hard case lipo and must charge in lipo sack. End of story. No need to make rules just to be making rules. Driving 8lb vehicles that can reach 70mph just by changing voltage is not for beginners, so they shouldn't be catered to. Either do it right or find another class that can be a little more accommodating.
If we don't want to dictate batteries mah sizes, etc. We will need to make heat and main times reasonable that the 5000mah standard as it has become on 4S consistently even with extreme hard driving makes runtime, IMHO. From what other manufacturers have posted based on what I recall, they have stated that we can expect about 13 - 15 minutes of runtime on a 5000mah 4S pack ( I think one was losi?) . I would say if they are saying a max of 15 minutes, assuming hard running, I think it would be better to be under there range, maybe 12 minutes max. This leads me to the 10 minute limit that I personally like.

As for a single tray, its not really hard to make it so most batteries fit. All you really got to do in the end is just use some form of weather stripping to take up the excess space when you put your packs in. Only issue there I see is guys who run different sized packs, which is probably minor when most will see this as a class where you need 1 or 2 batteries.
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Old 02-17-2009, 04:41 PM   #103
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Don't limit the battery and power systems in any way. It's the only way to keep companies creating new and better systems.

Hardcases again are a hilarious concept for me coming from Heli and Aircraft. You guys even build HARD trays that cover 3/4 of the pack with one side usually metal (chassis)! We strap very large lipo batteries on the very front of our helis with no protection! Aircraft aren't any better, I've seen lipos ejected during flight, fall over 100 feet at high speed and not start a fire on impact.

Their is also no reason to approve every stupid battery that comes to market. All the cells that we use in the hobby ALL come from one of 3 manufacturers. Also the VAST majority of fires occur during the charging, and modern chargers with integrated balancer eliminate 90 percent of the danger associated with charging lipo. The last 10 percent is simply NEVER charging a damaged pack. If your going to mandate anything for safety it would be chargers that monitor each cell's voltage during the entire charge cycle.
I don't think your claim of all batteries used in RC come from one of 3 manufacturers is accurate.

It's true that many packs come from the same manufatcurers but there is more than 3 manufacturers making high C rate cells used for RC applications. I know of 6 manufacturers that make Lipos suitable for RC use that are located in China and there are a few companies making them in Korea.

I can also guarantee that all SMC Lipo packs come from a manufacturer that exclusively makes Lipos for us. So there is no other company who has access to our cells/packs.
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Old 02-17-2009, 04:44 PM   #104
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Personally, I like the 10 minute mains, but wouldn't mind them increasing them to 12 minutes after this class gets sorted out. I also run nitro and I'm not a big fan of the 30, 45 or 60 minute mains. Everyone pays the same amount of money to race and I don't see why the fastest guys should be rewarded with more track time. Theoretically the slower guys obviously need more track time to get faster....LOL I travel to a few big races a year and with the fuel cost of driving there (or airfare if you fly), hotel, entry fees, parts, etc all add up. To run three 5-minute qualifiers and a 5 or 10 minute main stinks when you've just spent $1500 to be there. Plus the long mains drag out the day. Also is it fair that the A-main guys get to marshall a 5 minute race while someone else has to marshall their 60 minute race? Personally I don't mind marshalling but I hear guys complain about it all the time.

The max weight rule has been eliminated so no issue there. The minimum weight of 3200 grams (7 lbs 0.9 oz's) is fine too. Most new cars with a smaller pack will come close. I do not think anyone will be making a cheap thin chassis. The Mfg's know this class is appealing due to the durability these 1/8th cars possess.

I'm open to 4S, 5S or 6S but I also understand why ROAR chose 4S. I wouldn't get too worked up over this as I'm sure once you see more cars, motors, ESC's and batteries hit the market for this class, ROAR may very well change this rule (which I think they will in the long term). But they needed to start somewhere and this was the easiest way with the car Mfg's, battery Mfg's, charger Mfg's, etc plus the guys coming from 1/10th would be attracted to the two 2S pack thing.

Hard case versus soft case is always going to be a debate but I think with ROAR it has to do with liability (think insurance here). I'm 99.9% sure you will not see this changing with ROAR. So we'll have to live with it. Since most tracks will likely run a modified version of the ROAR rules it's really not that big a deal. The good thing is if the car Mfg's build a car that can hold the hard case packs, rest assured you will have MANY soft cased pack options for when you run and the hard cases are not required. So the hard case rule is actually a good thing if you think about it.

The best idea I've always agreed upon (and posted in this thread by Jhautz) is having a maximum weight rule on the battery. LiPo's are like fuel cells so regardless if you run 3S, 4S, 5S, 6S ....or 12S...you can only put so much energy (fuel) in a pack if the size is limited (by weight). Having a dimension rule shouldn't limit pack Mfg choice but you can certainly have one to limit the peep wanting to use a battery that is 12" long....LOL Just make the maximum dimensions on the broad side (such as 180L x 60W x 80H) so your typical pack would fit within the rules. But I'd limit the weight of the battery. This can be easily tech'd as well. The maximum weight should be based on what the most power consuming setups draw within the time limit of the mains plus let's say 30% (covers a few practice laps and final lap). As battery technology improves the packs may very well carry more "fuel" within that same weight specifications and at that point you raise the mains from 10 minutes to 12 minutes. Then 12 to 15, etc.
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Old 02-17-2009, 04:50 PM   #105
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I agree with JHautz.

I want 15 minute mains. These cars are more than capable of running 15 minutes with absolutely no problems. I do it every weekend. No need to short change ourselves. I have done it on huge tracks, blown out tracks, indoor tracks, rough tracks. sub freezing to 95 degree weather. A proper setup can run 15 minutes with plenty of battery to spare. I have never dumped in a 15 minute main.

Setting a 15 minute main will force people to not over power their cars because they won't be able to reliably run high kv motors and reasonably sized batteries. They will have to get a more efficient setup. This tackles the problem of needing multiple mains and driver's setting up overpowered cars.

If you want to run a high kv setup on 4s, that is your prerogative. I have done it too. Just don't complain you can't make 15 minutes.

Another easy fix is setting rpm limitations. Say 40,000 max rpm. This means you have to pick the appropriate kv motor with the right voltage.

1/8 electric isn't a beginner class. Slash is a beginner class. Make the rules 4s-6s, standard buggy size, soft or hard case lipo and must charge in lipo sack. End of story. No need to make rules just to be making rules. Driving 8lb vehicles that can reach 70mph just by changing voltage is not for beginners, so they shouldn't be catered to. Either do it right or find another class that can be a little more accommodating.
Dude you have a nice setup, I got it, but to say that "if you can't make 15min your doing it wrong" is kinda beating your chest a bit in my opinion. My 4s NEU 1515/1y MBX6 runs great, is not overgeared, is light, and runs cool all day long. I don't consider myself short changed, and I don't think the Losi 8E community does either. Sure there is a BETTER way, but you have to take into account what is reasonable, and I can tell you my local hobby shop does not have a 6s pack on the shelf. They have a 4s 5000mah though!

I run 20min mains with the nitros, doing a battery swap, and my swap time vs their re-fuel time makes for good fun legit racing. Racing a 15min ALL ELECTRIC main where some people like you have an expensive more rare setup that can make is a full 16-17min(before dumping), kinda leaves the majority out in the cold swapping batteries, while you cruise to an easy win. If I could make 15min, that would be no fun knowing I won because people couldn't.

One day maybe 4000mah 6s packs will be on every shelf for 100 bucks, but till then 15min mains seem unrealistic for most.
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