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Old 02-17-2009, 11:22 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by thuren View Post
Sheesh all this over 10min races.

Maybe I have one of those magical power sucker tracks. I don't know... All I'm saying is that I am not the only one who's car only runs 13 or so min tops. maybe I could lower my LVC setting to get the 15min? Hmmmmm, I think that may catch on and is sure to be safe.

- There would be so many people stressing that they can't make the 15min race if they take a warm up lap or two just to test traction.

- There would be quite a few racers, including me, with my horrible 2200kv POS NEU motor swapping batteries with one min to go in the race.

Well I guess according to you guys my setup sucks. I plan to go to 6s but damn, you guys are a funny 15min+ club or something as you are so concerned with it.

Even if you can make 16min of race time, whay push it so close? It's not like we have a pit guy ready to do a 7 second "recharge" like the nitro guys.

Goofy..

I don't think the battery change idea is gonna take off even if we do come up with clever trays and systems to do it.

Hey guys, we should be focussing on the duration of our heats. Don't want to end up doing 6 minute qualifiers by default just because the nitros are doing that on the day.

Make sure you push for at least 10 minute qualifiers at each of your respective clubs so we don't get short changed on track time. Present the arguement at every opportunity so that club officials understand we are a more efficient class and can get our races done in shorter time even if we are on the track longer cause there's no time wasted in the pits, topping up fuel and revving the tits off our engines like an ape beating it's chest.
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Old 02-18-2009, 12:46 AM   #152
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I have to back my man thuren up here. I run in SB as well with a 4s 5000 and a 1512/2.5d in a losi 8, and I sometimes get 15min. Mostly I'm done at 12-13min. It is a big track with a long straight. I also get similar runtimes at Rev, which is a big track with long straights.

Down at OCRC, which is a small indoor clay track, I've done 25min+. So really, I think its mostly track dependent.

Also, I'm in favor a quick swap battery system. Not triple amains. If you want short races go back to 1/10, and the insanity of 3 motor sub classes within each chassis class. 1/10 electric is a great example of division gone wild.

We need to learn from this and go the other way with 1/8. With a quick change battery system, electrics can run with nitros.

This is what I propose:
1. Someone design a quick change battery system. (this isn't rocket science)
2. Rules to keep top speed of electric equivalent to nitro.
3. Rules to keep overall pit time equivalent to nitro.

Pros:
1. No class division. This is so important at the club racing level.
2. No electric division. Your combo of battery, motor, and gearing must not go over, say 40mph for example.

Cons:
1. Cost of quick change battery system.
2. Cost of multiple battery packs to run long main.
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Old 02-18-2009, 06:23 AM   #153
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I like the idea of a 4S max just for cost and the ability to use packs in other RCís, I have a RC8E that I run two 2S packs together and I can use one of the packs in my slash for the spec class, if I have to spend more $$$$ for a 5s or 6s pack that will only work in the 1/8 itís less cost effective for me, I can see maybe a larger cell limit for truggy and monster class since they are larger and heaver RC, as for soft or hard case that I guess can be left up to the user Iíll run hard case for the added protection, only draw back of a hard case I can see is there is no way to see if a cell starts to puff
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Old 02-18-2009, 07:25 AM   #154
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Look guys, lets debate the merits of this without the backhanded comments. We are better than that.

Anyway, I will say this so people can understand what I am seeing. My setups are a Neu 1512 2.5D motor (which is a conservative motor) on 4S setup.

This setup when geared to be as fast as the nitros down the longest straight can burn down a 4S 6000XP battery pack in my RC8 RCPD conversion in about 18 minutes. I have burned down a 4S 4900mah pack using these same electronics in about 12 minutes, just in an MBX5 and U actually had the "right" tires too in that instance.

And with the 6000mah setup, I wasn't the only one who had shorter than expected runtimes, another driver with a 6500mah 4S, Neu 1512 2.5D experience the same 18 minute cutoff I got on his Tekno conversion using the clutch setup.

So, how do we define "properly geared" and driven conservatively? As I run with nitros, I gear to be similar in top speed to a nitro on the longest straight, and go from there. I would think that would be kind of how you would go, and as the Late Big Jim, a premier motor guy, told me to do for gearing, I gear to top out towards the end of the longest straight, which I do.

So, assuming this is properly geared based on what I have stated, now go to driving style. I run hard, but, I am not an on / off switch with the trhottle. I roll it pretty good to not always break free tirewise, and my 4S 4900mah dump happened with the right tires for the track. So explain?

At what point does the benefit of gearing down and conservative driving become more of a hassle than just driving the vehicle? 15 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes? And at what point do we have a sweet spot where its not an issue regardless of the gearing and driving style on a 4S 5000mah battery, and a 2000ish KV motor?

And Personally, I like a running in a 15 minute main, part of the reason I went with a bigger mah pack to consistently make that which the 4S 6000mah pack can do. But for the good of the class, I think we should have a lower limit of main time, with the max in my opinion being 12 minutes, with a 10-10-10 format being ideal.
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Last edited by Cain; 02-18-2009 at 07:53 AM.
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Old 02-18-2009, 07:56 AM   #155
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swamper....nobody said that you need to run a 6s setup just because some here want it to be allowed as a max.
as for the race length thing. why do you want to run 15 minutes at a club level even if most guys systems could do it safely and confidently? in a main that long the field will get so strung out it becomes boring.
we have a great local nitro track here and it can draw 40+ nitro 1/8 guys and a lot of them are very good drivers that can make their cars run consistantly. but when they run a 20 min main the winner usually beats the 5th place guy by 3-5 laps and this is a good size outdoor track.
if you have a program and your guys can run 15 minutes go ahead. but i still think for now a 10 min max is a good idea for many reasons not to mention respecting your fellow electric racers who dont get or want to run that long.
in time if 10 minute local races prove to keep the field close and tecnology improves then 15 minutes races can be introduced.
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Old 02-18-2009, 08:07 AM   #156
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I have convinced the local tracks in my area to lower the A main time from 30 to 15 min this year.
I am very happy running 15 min combined with the nitro guys. Since the announcment of the 15 min mains there has been around 10 people jump in and build 1/8th electric cars. I have been campaigning 1/8th electric for 2+ years in my area and have never dumped in a 15 min race. (With the exception of an experiment with an unknown capasity 5s pack that lasted 13min)
I run 4s 5000/6000 and a Nue 1512/2.5d
With my new Caster I plan to run 6500 mah 2+2s packs.
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Old 02-18-2009, 08:13 AM   #157
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I could live with a 12 minute main, but still prefer 15 minutes. Anything longer seems pointless imho. Forget the pit stops and battery swaps. Not needed and adds too much complexity.
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Old 02-18-2009, 08:19 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by thuren View Post
So does and off the shelf 8ight E or any of the RTR electric 8th out/coming out come ready for 6s? Will these same cars make 15min easy in full race mode?

If not, you guys are doing a great job explaining how to exclude the majority.
Jeez, are you guys reading the posts or not? YES, a BONE STOCK LOSI 8IGHT E with all STOCK EQUIPMENT, that includes a 2100 KV motor, and 4S 5000 battery, can run for OVER 20 minutes with EASE! If you have this car, with this equipment, and can't make it run in a 15 minute main, you're doing it wrong.
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Old 02-18-2009, 08:25 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by glassdoctor View Post
Basically, I agree with a lot of the rules ideas on some level.... like the limits on battery weight. That's a more effective rule than just limiting by dimensions or voltage.

But in the end, I don't think we need battery rules at all. The "market" will legislate itself... stupid setups will get weeded out... Darwin style.
Amen Brother Glassdoctor! A standardized battery tray would allow the racer to decide what best suits his track... just in case they run at one of those "Mah sucking blue groove tracks"...
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Old 02-18-2009, 08:29 AM   #160
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I wouldnt set up a nitro to drain the tank as fast as it can, why would you do that with an electric. Thats just a goofy argument in my mind.

The ideal setup has enough power to clear all obsticals on the course and just barly hits its top speed on the longest straight on the track. We all know that even the slowest 1/8 electric setup has more acceleration than the tires can keep on the ground. Using a motor with any more power than that is just wasting it cuz you arent turning faster laps because of it. A well setup buggy can run 15 minutes with no problem on 4s 5000, 5s 4000mah, or 6s 3333mah. You can argue all you want, but give me any buggy and any lipo with that much energy in it and you can put a system in it that will put down more power than you can use and make 15 minutes without fail.



Losi also makes 5s 4000mah pack in case you weren't aware.

Another goofy argument by the way....



EDIT: I agree w/ teeforb... dont base what a good setup is on what losi did with their systems. That was a pretty poor offering from an electronics and motor standpoint IMO. Buy the roller and conversion kit and get your motor and electronics from someone that knows what they are doing.

Edit #2: I dont get the mentalaity that racing is only driving like an animal with no thought to strategy or setup. The point in my mind is the challange of geting the whole package right. Not just saying I can drain my pack in 5 minutes if I never let off the throttle so the race should only be 5 minutes.
YES! You need TACTICS to win or even compete in a longer main. That's half the fun. If you want balls to the wall performance all the time, go buy a Playstation.
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Old 02-18-2009, 08:33 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by thuren View Post
Sheesh all this over 10min races.

Maybe I have one of those magical power sucker tracks. I don't know... All I'm saying is that I am not the only one who's car only runs 13 or so min tops. maybe I could lower my LVC setting to get the 15min? Hmmmmm, I think that may catch on and is sure to be safe.

- There would be so many people stressing that they can't make the 15min race if they take a warm up lap or two just to test traction.

- There would be quite a few racers, including me, with my horrible 2200kv POS NEU motor swapping batteries with one min to go in the race.

Well I guess according to you guys my setup sucks. I plan to go to 6s but damn, you guys are a funny 15min+ club or something as you are so concerned with it.

Even if you can make 16min of race time, whay push it so close? It's not like we have a pit guy ready to do a 7 second "recharge" like the nitro guys.

Goofy..

You MUST be doing something wrong man, my car runs for over 20 minutes easily, and well over 15 minutes even when I really push it. If you have that limited run time, then you need to look at several things. Your gearing for starters, and check to make sure your drive train is free. There's GOTTA be something wrong with your car or your driving style.
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Old 02-18-2009, 08:36 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by R40Victim View Post
Jeez, are you guys reading the posts or not? YES, a BONE STOCK LOSI 8IGHT E with all STOCK EQUIPMENT, that includes a 2100 KV motor, and 4S 5000 battery, can run for OVER 20 minutes with EASE! If you have this car, with this equipment, and can't make it run in a 15 minute main, you're doing it wrong.
From what I recall when asked about runtimes, team losi representatives themselves stated to expect about 12 - 15 minutes on the setup you are stating. If anyone should know what the vehicle can do for runtimes, you would assume that would be the manufacturer who also has drivers doing testing that have driving and setup skills beyond what most have. So if anyone should know what can be ran with ease, they would.

The argument that you don't make my runtime that I get on my track on your track isn't valid. If you are both running the same setups on the same track, then I would argue that there is an issue, but till then, its a hard call to say its not a track dependent issue.
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Old 02-18-2009, 08:48 AM   #163
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You MUST be doing something wrong man, my car runs for over 20 minutes easily, and well over 15 minutes even when I really push it. If you have that limited run time, then you need to look at several things. Your gearing for starters, and check to make sure your drive train is free. There's GOTTA be something wrong with your car or your driving style.
Jon above(Deskwarmer) runs Losi with a 1512, 5000 4s pack, and on my same track runs out of poop at 13min also.

Come to our track, and run at race-pace, and then tell US we have something wrong with our cars. My car is DIALED.

We are not the only ones having this happen as posted by a few other people here. If I run at your track I bet I CAN run for 15min.
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Old 02-18-2009, 08:51 AM   #164
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I agree that pitstops dont really have a place in electric racing. Part of the beauty in my mind is no need for a pit man or any of that. Just toss it down on the track walk up to the stand and race. The stacked mains approch seems like the best solution to me to give people the extra run time they are looking for and still keep the main lengths to the length that everyone can make.

I am very curious to see how the RCpro series works out with the stacked mains this year. I do plan on attending as many as possible and hope all of you guys do as well. I really want to see the class grow and the rules that RCpro has layed out do seem very reasonable to me. It allows alot of flexability and doesnt force 99% of the setups that people are running to change.

I really do feel that the RCpro rules will probably stick and be very close to the go forward standard.
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Old 02-18-2009, 08:51 AM   #165
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From what I recall when asked about runtimes, team losi representatives themselves stated to expect about 12 - 15 minutes on the setup you are stating. If anyone should know what the vehicle can do for runtimes, you would assume that would be the manufacturer who also has drivers doing testing that have driving and setup skills beyond what most have. So if anyone should know what can be ran with ease, they would.

The argument that you don't make my runtime that I get on my track on your track isn't valid. If you are both running the same setups on the same track, then I would argue that there is an issue, but till then, its a hard call to say its not a track dependent issue.
I'm not trying to argue, you're right about it being hard to compare apple to oranges so to speak. I'm trying to figure out why you don't get nearly the run time I do. You're getting about HALF what I get. That doesn't seem a little strange to you? Here, look at this video. Its my car, on my track, and typical of how I run it. Tell me, does it look like I'm "Wussy-footing" it around the track? Does it appear under geared, or like something strange is going on?

+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


here's the very first time I ran it at the track:

+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


I know my track isn't all that big, but it's technical. Listen to it in the vid, you can hear how often I'm accelerating.
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