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Old 11-13-2008, 06:23 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by haulin79 View Post
Those companies seem to like to make 2 versions of a concept:
-one that wins the championships
-a cheap RTR version of above

So until a beefier version fits one of the two categories above, it may never happen.
Ever heard of the Factory Team B4? This is the car the A team has been using to basically OWN the IFMAR off road podium since 2003

http://67.199.85.166/main/productdetails.php?text=9035

Or how about this?

http://www.losi.com/Products/Feature...rodId=LOSA0032

These are just two examples of kits available to the public, which are the same vehicles the top drivers use to win championships.

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Originally Posted by y2kgtp View Post
These things seem so fragile....now that we have LiPo batteries that are almost 1/2lb lighter, why not use more aluminum, thicker & more solid upper and lower arms, etc like the 1/8th buggies?

Just a thought...
Adding thicker, heavier parts will add more weight to the vehicle. This extra weight may cause drivers to add more power to go faster. The faster the cars go, the harder they hit the wall, increasing the chance of breakage. The increased chance of breakage will create a need for thicker, heavier parts. And so on, and so on, and so on. I own a B44 and only broke 2 front arms. Both times I was haulin a$$ and missed a turn. Don't hit stuff=less broken stuff.
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Old 11-13-2008, 09:31 PM   #32
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Dont get me wrong, I would rather race 1/10 scale but I try to see the big picture.

But 1/8 nitro is by far the most popular kind of racing there is. The few people who come from 1/8 scale to 1/10 scale are dissapointed by the durability of 1/10 scale vehicles.

The only way to make an electric buggy as durable as a nitro buggy is to make it 1/8 scale.

Between Mod/Stock/19t/13.5/Lipo/NiMh electric 1/10 scale 4wd Buggy/2wd Buggy/Stadium Truck/Slash classes at various tracks, I dont even know what to expect when you try to race electric vehicles these days.

Its time to put a fork in it.
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Old 11-13-2008, 10:00 PM   #33
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But 1/8 nitro is by far the most popular kind of racing there is. The few people who come from 1/8 scale to 1/10 scale are dissapointed by the durability of 1/10 scale vehicles.
Most popular? In your area, maybe...1/8 Nitro and 1/10 electric are two totally different animals. How much of that "disappointment" is more from having to adjust their driving style? To your earlier comment; Nitro is not taking over the hobby, it has its fans like electric will always have its fans. When was the last time anyone cared about a 1/8th onroad world championship? For that matter, 1/5 scale?

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The only way to make an electric buggy as durable as a nitro buggy is to make it 1/8 scale.
How do you figure that? I don't see how making electric buggies bigger or heavier is going to benefit them in durability...I see Novice racers beat the snot out of their kits at many club races, and the kits hold up just fine.

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Between Mod/Stock/19t/13.5/Lipo/NiMh electric 1/10 scale 4wd Buggy/2wd Buggy/Stadium Truck/Slash classes at various tracks, I dont even know what to expect when you try to race electric vehicles these days.
Are you saying there's too many classes in electric?

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Its time to put a fork in it.
Naw, I just threw some more hot sauce on it....
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Old 11-13-2008, 11:07 PM   #34
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True that the xxx4 tends to be pretty fragile. It can really haul the mail but if you tag something it'll probably bust a front diff cover or shock tower but the arms and pretty much the rest of the car hang pretty good.

I'm sure my driving has settled down even with the newfound horsepower but I gotta say, since adding braces to the shocktowers and front arms on my XX4 (yep) I'm gettin away with a lot more "mistakes" than I ever used to.
It's been a while since a cartwheel or even a T bone has taken this car out.
The last broken part I had was a front arm, and that was at full speed (5.5 motor), got nudged into the pipe on the straight.

My point is that each of these 4wd cars are just a touch away from being pretty friggin tough. My once fragile XX4 has been super reliable and even more fun to drive with just a couple mods.
Shock towers on these cars, top plate on that car, arms on that other car...
Lots of stuff is available so don't put em on the shelf.
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Old 11-13-2008, 11:32 PM   #35
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1/10th scale mod 4wd is a advanced class. The maintence is higher and the cars don't like to be over driven. They are fast and heavier then 2wd therefore they are less forgiving on contact.

I really see no issues with the car i run in terms of durability and frankly if you intend to drive one like a 1/8th buggy your gonna break it.
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Old 11-14-2008, 12:17 AM   #36
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hey 1 9er ....i disagree with everythig u just said except there faster!!!

would be sick to see 1/10 4wd electric 8 2.o....hardly no maintence especially the diffs...at least if u dont want to.
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Old 11-14-2008, 12:46 AM   #37
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I don't get all this talk about fragile, and less forgiving. I have seen obvious issues with the rtr stuff, but I think that is the classic "you get what you pay for" issue.

As a beginner I shelled out the coinage for what I knew what would survive the learning curve, but most of everyone has heard that broken record from me before.

Drive clean, bottom line - if you can't do that than go back to 2wd until you can.
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Old 11-14-2008, 08:39 AM   #38
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Going back to the original question:

I think the manufacturers should be looking to make a vehicle just like Haulin79 described. Something beefier and easier to drive. Something like a 1/10 4wd electric stadium truck would be perfect.

But, since most us are completely satisfied that 1/10 4wd is as good as it can be and its the RC enthusiasts fault that their mod 4wd buggy brakes more often than their 1/8 buggy the demand is not there to improve the vehicles. So the answer to the question is: 1/10 4wd buggies are not going to change much, if at all.

I think thats a big mistake because that leaves the door wide open for electric 1/8 scale to take over.

A few years ago, I would have resisted such a change too, but, now I'm looking forward to it. I figure its going to take a couple years so nothing is going to change right away.

If some of you guys havent driven an 1/8 buggy recently, you ought to. They are nothing like what they were 3-5 years ago. I cant even think of a bad one. And a $375 1/8 scale buggy just won the worlds.

The reviews of the electric conversions are that they are even faster than nitro.

Whats not to like?
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Old 11-14-2008, 08:59 AM   #39
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I think the manufacturers should be looking to make a vehicle just like Haulin79 described. Something beefier and easier to drive. Something like a 1/10 4wd electric stadium truck would be perfect.
I again humbly disagree. I think they are pretty tough as is. 4wd has always been a bit more fragile than 2wd. But to make a kit "beefier" as you call it, you would see an unnecessary increase in weight. I agree, a 4wd truck would be awesome, but HPI tried that, and failed (I bought one when it first came out).

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But, since most us are completely satisfied that 1/10 4wd is as good as it can be and its the RC enthusiasts fault that their mod 4wd buggy brakes more often than their 1/8 buggy the demand is not there to improve the vehicles.
Why would a manufacturer not want to sell parts? Why make something so durable that the average person (non-racer) would hardly have to buy parts? Don't you think that they (AE, Losi, Kyosho, Tamiya etc) build their cars to be a compromise b/w durability and lightness? You also don't take into account that cars like the B44 are race kits, not RTR's.

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I think thats a big mistake because that leaves the door wide open for electric 1/8 scale to take over.
I think it will be an addition to the classes being run, and if that happens, I think it will be good for the hobby. Taking over, no.

Quote:
A few years ago, I would have resisted such a change too, but, now I'm looking forward to it. I figure its going to take a couple years so nothing is going to change right away.
We'll see...But I sincerely doubt it.

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Old 11-15-2008, 06:05 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Ed237 View Post
Dont get me wrong, I would rather race 1/10 scale but I try to see the big picture.

But 1/8 nitro is by far the most popular kind of racing there is. The few people who come from 1/8 scale to 1/10 scale are dissapointed by the durability of 1/10 scale vehicles.

The only way to make an electric buggy as durable as a nitro buggy is to make it 1/8 scale.
Perhaps they should just work on their driving instead, or perhaps stick to 1/8th tanks?

Seems a bit strange to think the entire the entire dynamic of the class should be changed to compensate for people who won't or aren't capable of making the effort to treat them with the respect and finesse required.
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Old 11-16-2008, 09:30 AM   #41
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I understand what you guys are saying about driving 4wd clean and with finesse, but that's also like saying "just drive around the track perfectly!" Which is kind of silly because we all make mistakes.

That being said, making the car tougher so that it can better handle our mistakes is something I find desirable. Yes, it would probably add weight to the car. But you know what, I found adding a little weight to my sbv2 helped calm it down and I was able to drive more consistently, so its not necessarily a bad thing. Also, most 4wd classes are mod, so its not like you can't make your car fast enough with an extra 200grams.
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Old 11-16-2008, 10:03 AM   #42
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I don't think you're going to see a design change in 1/10th 4wd without a change in the way the cars are raced. Here's my logic to support that: These cars aren't built to sell parts so much as they're built to win races (I say that because sales support it: electric 4wd is such a small portion of the market, dwarfed by even 2wd electric or truck, that its a very good guess that unlike most other RC cars nearly all 4wd's do in fact see a track). The format of electric racing supports a car that is super-fast over one that's more durable. Think about it: at most major races, only 1/2 of your qualifying runs count (2 of 4) and if you make the main only 2 of those three races count. At club races, usually only 1 of the 3 qualifiers counts and then there's the main. So if the car breaks a pessimistic 1 out of 3 times on the track, you still have a good chance of being able to win the race! Obviously this simple look at odds is ignoring the huge variability in driver level, but I think you can see what I mean.

To make the comparison, 1/8th scales are not only bigger, heavier, have more power (but less power/weight! ), run on generally bigger tracks w/ bigger jumps, but they have to survive ~20 minute mains (local level) or 45, 60 minute mains at the larger events. That being the case durability just becomes much more important. In this case you can't have a car that breaks every 15 minutes on the track (1 out of 3 electric races) because you obviously would never win anything.

Finally, look at what it would take to beef up an electric 4wd - its a lot different than simply adding weight to the main chassis. To increase durability you're talking about bigger suspension arms, caster blocks, spindles, probably full upper arms rather than turnbuckles, and more aluminum around the hinge pins. In the driveline you probably want steel cvd's rather than aluminum, and gear diffs instead of ball. All that weight is not being added nicely near the center of mass (which gives traction but doesn't affect handling too badly) but rather at the extremes of the car. You're going to have more roll, more inertia, etc... just overall a slower car. The other way to do it is to go with really flexible plastics, and that's going to give an inconsistent and slower car, not to mention the possibility of really messing with the drivetrain (if the chassis is super-flexi).

So what would get manufactures to build a more durable 4wd? I think a change in the races. Start running longer mains a la the enduro truck races that have been popping up. Or, have a race where every qualifier counted, so breaking down is really penalized. These ideas are a bit of a catch 22 though, 'cause obviously the current crop of 4wd's could make it tough to get such a class to take off. Perhaps at some point ROAR will increase the length of normal races (from like six minutes to ten or whatever) and I think that would probably help some.
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Old 11-16-2008, 10:13 AM   #43
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all you "racers" missed the point.we are all happy that you have your carbon parts to play with.the track i race on can break your carbon parts down the straights,without hitting anything.what the rest of us are after is parts like RPM's stuff.yes rpm material is flexable,but i really dont think that we care about that.does rpm have to make an a-arm 1/8 size to be indestructible on a 1/10 scale?no.

what the point of this thread imo,is about a serious 4wd basher/racer.lately,i have been having a lot of fun with my slash.so have my friends.now one of us has the velineon system in it,and like the newb he is,bought a three cell lipo.i can already see him getting frustrated,which is totally expected.yes i understand that combo really doesnt belong on a track.the point is the driver does.he has been asking me about 4wd buggies.what would i suggest?the only 4wd's are pretty much racer only.so now we get to the topic of this thread.
i ran a crt.5 for a while,and after a bunch of mods,i could pretty much beat that thing like an 1/8 scale.honestly,if traxxas came out with a 4wd slash type vehicle,id be all over it.would i care that it didnt handle as well as a zx-5,or b-44?no.would i be happy that i could drive it in my yard,or in an empty lot at ridiculous speeds without spinning out all the damn time?hell yeah!would i be ecstatic because when i broke it,the hobby shop had parts for it on the shelf,like they do for losi,and associated?hell yeah!

a 1/10 scale 4wd stadium by a popular manufacterer seems like the most sensible rc investment ever.1/10 scale brushless systems are cheaper than 1/8,imo by far.batteries as well.on a small tangeant,brushless has kind of messed stuff up a little by being too fast.dont get me wrong,i love brushless.but when a guy puts the velineon,or almost any other combo in a 2wd car,its overpowered.not everybody is a hardcore racer that is gonna put the time and effort into it to figure out how to drive a 2wd truck effectively at warp factor nine.but he does stand a better chance of staying in the hobby,if he can just as easily point and shoot with a 4wd at twice the speed as he could with a 2wd.
which makes me wonder,why companies put so much time and effort into things like the high roller from losi,instead of a super durable electric 4wd.i really feel like the market is there.
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Old 11-16-2008, 10:23 AM   #44
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companies are going to put money where they feel a buck can be made. Some companies like to strike out on something new more often than others, which is why for example you see Losi at times being in the front with something new / different to try, and associated waiting to see if it takes off before doing there own entry.

1/8 scale electric in my opinion was an answer to those who wanted a durable 4wd vehicle, which 1/8 scales usually are, that also eliminates the hassle of tuning a nitro engine. Technology has finally made it viable to do something like this with lipo batteries and brushless systems.

with tracks the way they are going right now, its hard to justify spending dollars on a 4wd 1/10 scale electric when the 1/10 scale 2wd buggies can barely make it around the 1/8 scale oriented tracks.

Maybe the whole CORR craze can help this, as it may have people orient there tracks more to corr scaled vehicles, and let the 1/10 scale stuff have a chance outdoors.
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Old 11-16-2008, 10:54 AM   #45
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1/10 needs to change to survive!

Right now the only thing thats keeping it going is the Slash. I'm not a proponent of the Slash, but, I cant deny its helping to bring people in. Which is great.

And from what I've heard, Slashes are pretty much industructable and are great for bashing. Something tells me that few if any current Slash owners will have much patience for 1/10 4wd buggies and of their inherrent limitations.

So when someone is ready to step from up the Slash, which looks like an 1/8 buggy with a truck body, what are they going to buy? Its probably going to be a Slayer, or SC8 or something 8th scale.

And they will probably want something thats ready to go, right out of the box. Something like the 8ight-E; A truly RACE READY electric roller a lot like the nitro roller version which has helped propelled the 1/8 buggy class to the top of racing.
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