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Old 01-17-2008, 10:46 AM   #1
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Default The Coming Battery Wars of our Age ?

I saw an interesting post concerning possible battery wars concerning lipo technology and I would like to get peoples opinions on this?

Will we see Lipos in the future advertised as "Matched, Team Drivers blah blah blah" packs?
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Old 01-17-2008, 10:52 AM   #2
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I hope not, but that's what the marketing strategy will more than likely be.
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Old 01-17-2008, 10:55 AM   #3
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I see no point in it, as if they do then the price of the packs will go up, and the lower $ packs will be more likely to have a problem. (although the mAh war will never end )
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Old 01-17-2008, 11:05 AM   #4
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Main thing I can see if it is possible is just like they do now in the NIMH market, cater to racers who want the advantage from there packs. I sure hope it doesn't become that way. I would rather see them improve quality of the packs and how long they last, etc or maybe better wiring techniques then actual lipo cells that vary in performance.

I would like to here more thoughts.
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Old 01-17-2008, 11:30 AM   #5
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When Lipos's first came onto the market they were going to stop all of the battery wars, but think if you could (& can & someone will) match these as far as voltage output & run time (just like nickle metals). As these cells become more main stream i think you will see that & with this you will see the cells needing to be replaced more often because of the high demands that will be placed on the cells, like 15 or 20 min. mains.
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Old 01-17-2008, 11:52 AM   #6
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Thumbs up In the long run LIPO is cheaper...1000X charges.

I have heard NiMh packs fail at 200 charges but still and estimation on life span.
I'm still in NiMh, I'm fine with NimH because I dont race as often as most.
IF I was a hardcore racer and raced every week Id definitly go Lipo.

But sometimes I may not race again for another month, it just depends.
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Old 01-17-2008, 12:03 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cain View Post
I saw an interesting post concerning possible battery wars concerning lipo technology and I would like to get peoples opinions on this?

Will we see Lipos in the future advertised as "Matched, Team Drivers blah blah blah" packs?
By the end of '08 I predict

As far as actual technology that improves performance in a way similar to how matched packs did, probably not. But you will see people trying to stir up sales by claiming "27% more punch than the competition!" and things like that. Lipo packs and accessories are probably the biggest market items in RC right now, competition will turn up the heat too
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Old 01-17-2008, 12:59 PM   #8
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you wont see much untill they un-wisely lengthen race lengths.

The whole battery matching started way back when the batteries just barely made it for the whole race (4 minute racing and Sanyo 1700 SCE Nicd). Matching the pack for those few extra seconds of runtime was critical for being able to run a faster motor (15 turn modifieds) then your competitior and make the whole race.

The current batteries and fastest 5 turn motors are able to make runtime, so the matching was more for perceived quality, then performance.

Now that ROAR has made rules for Lipo, and that more importantly have size dimensions limiting capacity, a change of race length to something like 20 minutes could bring Lipo battery matching into play. Sure, right now you don't need to know how many seconds a 5000mah lipo can discharge @35 amps, because everybody can make 5 minutes no matter which motor. But when the race length gets longer to say 20 minutes, A Reedy lipo pack may have more runtime then a Maxamps, which may have more runtime then a Orion. And racers will pay more for the advantage to run a faster motor and not dump their battery, they have already proved that for over 20 years. Its all relative to race length and battery capacity.

Right now, legalizing Lipo is great for racers. Every lipo pack can make 5 minutes with every motor, some you have enough capacity to run 2 or 3 times without recharging. But once racers start to push for longer races, and they will. The whole battery war will rage on, the only way to prevent it would be to keep the race length short enough not to need matched packs.
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Old 01-17-2008, 01:52 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrubb View Post
you wont see much untill they un-wisely lengthen race lengths.

The whole battery matching started way back when the batteries just barely made it for the whole race (4 minute racing and Sanyo 1700 SCE Nicd). Matching the pack for those few extra seconds of runtime was critical for being able to run a faster motor (15 turn modifieds) then your competitior and make the whole race.

The current batteries and fastest 5 turn motors are able to make runtime, so the matching was more for perceived quality, then performance.

Now that ROAR has made rules for Lipo, and that more importantly have size dimensions limiting capacity, a change of race length to something like 20 minutes could bring Lipo battery matching into play. Sure, right now you don't need to know how many seconds a 5000mah lipo can discharge @35 amps, because everybody can make 5 minutes no matter which motor. But when the race length gets longer to say 20 minutes, A Reedy lipo pack may have more runtime then a Maxamps, which may have more runtime then a Orion. And racers will pay more for the advantage to run a faster motor and not dump their battery, they have already proved that for over 20 years. Its all relative to race length and battery capacity.

Right now, legalizing Lipo is great for racers. Every lipo pack can make 5 minutes with every motor, some you have enough capacity to run 2 or 3 times without recharging. But once racers start to push for longer races, and they will. The whole battery war will rage on, the only way to prevent it would be to keep the race length short enough not to need matched packs.

I totally agree and hope ROAR takes this into consideration.

All we need in another battery war that will send electrics into another downward spiral.
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Old 01-17-2008, 01:52 PM   #10
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Quote:
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Will we see Lipos in the future advertised as "Matched, Team Drivers blah blah blah" packs?
All LiPo packs are already "matched" and SMC is selling their first gen pack sans voodoo so hopefully that is a good sign that it won't get too crazy. However, there will always be a push among spec class racers for packs with higher c ratings, which means more punch. They won't be happy until the LiPo packs provide as much or more punch than a pack of IB4200's. Will this push for higher c ratings diminish some of the positive aspects of LiPo? Who knows....And I really don't care. My new Orion 3600 25C LiPos are doing a great job in super stock and mod. I don't think I could tell a difference between them and a pack of IB4200's, but that doesn't mean there isn't a difference.
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Old 01-17-2008, 01:57 PM   #11
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you wont see much untill they un-wisely lengthen race lengths.
I'd be willing to bet that the majority of us old school electric racers want 6 to 8 minute mains whereas nitro converts and noobs would like to see even longer mains. There are more of us than there are of them at the moment.
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Old 01-17-2008, 02:07 PM   #12
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LiPo packs are produced to much more accurate standards so within a manufacturer matching is for the most part already done. I have a friend that matches conventional NiMh and that chemistry is pretty well developed now too. Used to be that a matcher would only use 50-70% of a batch at best and now they use almost all the cells they get because the quality is so consistent. I really don't see that happening with LiPo. The charging systems are pretty foolproof and there is no advantage to pushing the cells with high charge rates anyway.

I think Scrubb meant race lengths more like 20+ minutes. 6-8minutes has been well within the realm of possibility since 2000mah batteries came out.
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Old 01-17-2008, 02:22 PM   #13
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I just hope that race dir.'s will only go to 8 min. race's. The JConcept race was 5 min. qualifiers & 8 min. "B" mains & 10 min. "A" mains. With EP4200's the 8 mins. was very doable, 10 mins was not or very slow on the last lap.
The guys running LIPO's of course had no problems but the cells were very hot. So does this mean that if you discharge these at a high rate (4WD Mod) will it require so type of heat sink on the batteries? And how long can a LIPO last at this rate? Not knocking the technology just wanting to know.
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Old 01-17-2008, 02:31 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidka View Post
LiPo packs are produced to much more accurate standards so within a manufacturer matching is for the most part already done. I have a friend that matches conventional NiMh and that chemistry is pretty well developed now too. Used to be that a matcher would only use 50-70% of a batch at best and now they use almost all the cells they get because the quality is so consistent. I really don't see that happening with LiPo. The charging systems are pretty foolproof and there is no advantage to pushing the cells with high charge rates anyway.

I think Scrubb meant race lengths more like 20+ minutes. 6-8minutes has been well within the realm of possibility since 2000mah batteries came out.
I would like to see 6min quali's and 8 min mains. Perfecto ! on fridays i am there till 2am as it is. 230am wouldnt be so bad
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Old 01-17-2008, 04:03 PM   #15
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Well,
If you think about this logically you'll realize that NimH's would eventually be replaced. Nicads were replaced with NimHs and if I had to guess the price equivliency was the same back then as it is now.
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