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Old 01-08-2008, 01:12 AM   #1
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Default Roar Brushless motor debate thread.

Well I have been following this Roar Brushless Rule debate in the On-Road forum, and it is very interesting to hear all of the different opinions.

http://www.rctech.net/forum/showthread.php?t=198561

Since Roar is getting reading to change some of the rules and classes by the end of the month, in regards to Brushless , they seem to be really interested in hearing the racers opinions.

So I thought maybe they would like to hear some thoughts from the Off-Road racers.

Not many people, ''my self included'', seem to have a problem with running what ever Brushless motor in Modified , and letting the 10.5 Brushless run with the 19T Brushed class.

It seems that the biggest debate revolves around the Stock class, and which Brushless motor (13.5 or 17.5) would be equal to a 27 T Brushed motor.

Most of what I have read, seems to be people wanting to try find a way to run the two different motors together , I really don't think there is any way to do that fairly.

I suggested that Roar just leave the Stock Brushed class and rules unchanged, and make there be a minimum entry for that class to be run .

Then Start a new Brushless Stock class with what ever motor can be agreed to be the best for this entry level class.

I would bet with in a very short time they will see that nobody will want to race 27t/Brushed stock class any more, and the class will just fade away .

Well that is my opinion for what it's worth, let's hear some of your idea's and suggestions in a friendly positive debate.
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Old 01-08-2008, 05:26 AM   #2
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I feel that Roar national events should just be amateur (19b/10.5bl) and expert classes (open modified). Their shouldn't be a sportsman (stock) or lower national champion.

Sportsman class is fine for a regional event. I think 17.5 would be the way to go simply because brushless system technology and Lipo technology will quickly advance and get faster (just like Nimh and brushed technology did). Starting out slower will allow for 'breathing room' for better technology without the future products being too fast for the skill level of the racers that would be typically be in stock or sportsman classes.
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Old 01-08-2008, 11:47 AM   #3
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My vote for the stock class would have to be the 13.5. Mainly because most tracks have adopted it already. I havent even seen a 17.5 run in offroad. I was at a carpet oval race recently and they informed me that 27t brushed was atleast a lap faster than 17.5. Now could you imagine an even slower stock truck class. BORING! I cant imagine how we would have to gear them. We run some majorly tall gear on 13.5, prolly have to mill some motor plates to get the gear on the 17.5. I do believe that the 17.5 would have to be closer in performance to the current stock thean the 13.5. The 13.5 is just plain faster and in proper hands will out and out smoke a stock motor. Everyone I've talked to likes the power of the 13.5 and doesnt want stock to be any slower. I for one have never been a fan of 19t in offroad. It's pointless to me. It does serve a purpose in on-road but its just not necessary in offroad, that is if you have a stock and a mod class already. I just dont think there needs to be another "stepping stone" for offroad. If you have to the 10.5 for 19t is fine also. IF ROAR makes 17.5 the stock class there gonna be a lot of racers with now useless 13.5's. I do think in on-road speeds have gotten really high and a 17.5 may be the answer for the on-road segment.
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Old 01-08-2008, 11:56 AM   #4
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13.5 because I have 3 of them. A LOT of people have them as they were the established stock motor at almost all tracks. If given the choice of HAVING to buy new motors just to race stock or having to go up to 10.5 which I am uncomfortable with, I'll just chose not to race.
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Old 01-08-2008, 12:29 PM   #5
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Being the owner of a track and holding races, I feel as though the 13.5 has already been established as the "Stock Brushless" and feel as though it should be the wind used for offroad "Stock" Applications. My track and other tracks around the country already allow the use of this motor as the "Stock" brushless motor and it has already been established that way.

I don't agree that another class should be formed as that only waters down the existing stock class as it is. We need the class to be full and strong, not small, multiple and unclear. Races around the country already have way to many classes to choose from, adding more only washes down the already small numbers. There is no difference in making another class to wash out another then there is to add them together and wash the other out. One will over power the other eventually, might as well do it in 1 class, not 2 and not risk the fate of a class based off of mediocre numbers that produce mediocre results. Regardless of the matter, if you put a limit on the class, what do you do with the people when one is over powered? You mix them in as that is the only solution. Why pro-long the inevitable? Work smart first and you won't work hard later.

Mixing them in one class will be the most effective way. Electric needs saved now, not down the road.

I do however want to make a call out to the OEM's that are still trying to survive on brushed motors... You all should be lobbying with ROAR to get the already outdated brushed motor specs changed to suit your needs to be competitive against brushless? I think that you can still make a difference and I think changes can be made that will do just that. Instead of sitting on the sidelines worrying about brushless taking over, do something that makes brushed better? Just a thought? You have a President now that will listen!!

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Old 01-08-2008, 12:35 PM   #6
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What motor to run is secondary to batteries in stock. They need to find a way to control voltage or to make a spec battery rule so that the batteries are evenly matched and economical. Lots of tracks have newer racers that should be learning to drive in stock choosing mod instead because they don't want to spend the money on batteries just to find not get beaten by someone else's faster car.

If there were a way to limit voltage to a true 7.2v (or 6v, whatever) no matter what battery was connected then the Lipo/Nimh conversation would go away too.
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Old 01-08-2008, 12:49 PM   #7
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I'm not racing stock anymore either if i have to get a 17.5. Just bought a 13.5 and it is plenty SLOOWW. Now- given i haven't had a 27t brushed motor to compare it to since i had my Grasshopper or the "540 gold" in my gold tub rc 10 when i was 14, whatever that motor was.

There is a huge gap between a 10.5 and a 13.5!!! How many of you are still holding out with a 27t brushed motor??? I understand Mod people wanting the feel of brushed but with a 27t can't you just hold it full throttle a lot of the time??? What's there to control?


With a 17.5 can you even clear ANY of the jumps on a track? I struggle on our supercross type indoor tracks with a 13.5. I really just race stock 2wd to fill the time between 10.5 wheeler class heats! (and it's good practice)

Given i've only been racing for 1 year. So here's the view from a newbie. Since i got back in all i have had is brushless. (I'm 33 now)
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Old 01-08-2008, 12:56 PM   #8
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No one said that your 13.5's will be useless. The class is set to be able to run UP TO a certain type/size of motor. I've seen people run a 27T in a 19T class because the track was small enough and slick enough that it was the better for them. IF they make 17.5 stock (which I dont think is going to happen in OFF ROAD) then you either step up and by a 17.5 OR you can run your 13.5 in the UP TO 10.5 intermediate class (and probably be very competitive if the track is on the smaller side) Some people like to run a 19t in the mod class...run what motor suits you as long as it fits within the guidlines (whatever that may end up being). And besides, the ROAR rules are still just "guidelines" for the local tracks. They can run whatever classes work for them.

The Cactus is definately going to help figure out a lot about this debate. Its the only way I can see to really come up with how to set up a rule base. Just discussing it on the forums doesnt seem to really be getting anywhere. Run the motors in what is "thought" to be the best scenario and see how it plays out. I'm real interested to see how many people run a 13.5 in stock and how they sort out in the mains.
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Old 01-08-2008, 01:03 PM   #9
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You know, is there anyone that has just gone out and tested brushless vs brushed in OFF ROAD? I see these guys in the ON ROAD thread that are doing all this testin with 4 cell 1/12 and 5 cell mod, blha blah blah. What about off road? Is there anyone that has really sat down and to try and see where brushless stands with brushed. Theres alot people that run one or the other, and have their say (which is fine by the way) but no one thats said, "well, I've been doing this".
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Old 01-08-2008, 01:17 PM   #10
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I still contend that, in off-road, the 13.5 is not faster than an out of the box 27t brushed stock motor. Yes, it does have a ton of starting torque so you can gear it high...there's no question. However, the guys at our track still running brushed in stock (which are fewer every week) are just as fast on the straight. In fact, brushed motors can still win in stock on any given Saturday at our track. I run a 13.5 in our stock class. Of course that makes me biased, yes. However, I am not really any faster with it. I just don't have to waste time maintaining motors. I have not run a 17.5. I can only assume that it would be a fair bit slower. My guess is that if they make 17.5 stock, our track will have a weekly 13.5 spec class since so many people run it now. I wish I could try out a 17.5 so I could make my opinion valid.
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Old 01-08-2008, 01:31 PM   #11
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It has very little to do with speed. The reason less guys are running brushed stock is because BL motors require no maintnence and make for much more even racing. If the battery were some sort of spec (not number of cells, tested voltage is the only thing that will do) then stock would be, for the first time, stock.
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Old 01-08-2008, 01:31 PM   #12
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Default B's vs. B'less

I have been racing at SoCal for about a year and a half. Very few people had the brushless/lipo combo when I started, but they certainly grew in popularity. In stock class brushless was not allowed, however with a relaxed club racing atmosphere they managed to creep in. The top racers were not the people using brushless motors, typically the newer racers.
It was decided that unless somebody really started to complain or racing became unfair, it would be overlooked. I didnít really hear anybody complaining. I also didnít see brushless running away with the wins. I never felt like the brushless trucks were hands down faster than my truck. By the way they all used 13.5ís.

There will be a number of people running brushed motors in stock class the Cactus, and Iíll be willing to wager itís still the driver, not the motors which win.

That said, brushless is here to stay, and it is true for sure that the stock motor companies had better start lobbying for a position in the future.

The differences between brushless / brushed are adjustable timing, bearings, interchangeable rotors, and the brushless motors are (way) above the price cap imposed on stock racing. These things maybe should be looked at by ROAR, and a few motor makers.

Sorry if I rambled a bit here. My .02.
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Old 01-08-2008, 01:57 PM   #13
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Roar smoar, Whatever the racers or track owner/operators wanna do. Just make the standard a 13.5.
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Old 01-08-2008, 02:05 PM   #14
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i've been running against the 13.5 with my co27. i'm hanging with them. as long as i don 't screw up and crash . now with them having lipos too then its a real challenge. but same thing if i have a good run im just as fast. and i'm running 4200 batteries.
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Old 01-08-2008, 02:09 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kstarr View Post
i've been running against the 13.5 with my co27. i'm hanging with them. as long as i don 't screw up and crash . now with them having lipos too then its a real challenge. but same thing if i have a good run im just as fast. and i'm running 4200 batteries.
Use a Lipo with that brushed. Nothing said Lipos and Brushless only go together.
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